Could The Best Of Lennox Beat The Best Of Joe Frazier?

I have to agree, Ali wasn't the Ali of old. But to me he still seemed absolutely better than anyone else at the time, and better than anyone since he'd been away...including better than Frazier. Except on that one, supremely vengeful night.

Ali shot himself in the foot when he went overboard taunting Joe. He crossed the line, making Frazier look at times genuinely psychotic during the fight. Joe actually walked into some fantastic combinations, many of which Ali was most certainly sitting into, and he just seemed to get more and more pissed.

Let's not forget, I'm the nut who believes NO heavyweight beats FOTC Frazier. I've never seen a heavyweight that driven...the announcer said it best "Joe is murder, just murder". I'm the fool who believes even prime Foreman would have gotten chopped down in 9 by THAT Joe.

Just that ONE night alone.

Welll....I see your point, but Lewis did defeat every man set in front of him, and under Steward was at times strikingly brilliant as a fighter. I don't put him there with Ali, Holmes, Foreman, or Holyfield...but still a great, great fighter.

As I mentioned, I don't think he could have beat FOTC Frazier, but I think he just edges him as ATG. Lewis was definite top 10 material ATG...I'd be surprised if too many people contested that ranking.

 

Yeah anyone who thinks Frazier could possibly win is only capable of having an agenda.

 

Wish I saw this before I responded to your first post. Have no interest in engaging with a troll.

 

Excellent post! You have me now leaning towards Frazier in a 15 rounder.

 

I do think he can win because of the immense pressure of Joe Frazier, I do not have an agenda, just speaking of a speculation and opinion, if they had fought. Lewis can be beaten, we saw that twice. Frazier before The Fight Of The Century as you mentioned in your post was pure murder that night, I really do not ride on fighters based on size alone, skill might have something to do with winning, remember Joe had not faced that punishment then, this was before George Foreman. Joe had been decked by Oscar Bonavena in 1966, difference was, Frazier got up to win, Lennox never got up from Hassim Rahman and Oliver McCall. If a fighter depends on one man to hold his hand to win, then he is a mental midget. Ali never depended a whole lot on Angelo Dundee.

 

Thanks my friend but I have watched both fight.

 

You misunderstood me Richard. My comment was a sarcastic one.

 

I did not take any offense to your post my friend.

 

Fight Advantages:
Hand Speed-No Advantage, Boxing Ability-Lewis, KO Power-Lewis, Chin-Frazier, Size-Lewis, Defense-Lewis, Endurance-Frazier, Adaptability-Lewis, Foot Speed-Lewis, Strength-Lewis, Jab-Lewis, Cuts-No Advantage, Reach-Lewis 84” to 73”, Body Attack-Frazier:
Total: 9-3-2 for Lennox Lewis

Moontan, Boxing Expert from Heavyweightaction.com-Judge
Frazier has some big advantages in this fight, his endurance pushing a very fast pace which Lennox is not used to fighting at and a body attack that Lewis has never seen before. Lewis on the other hand has the enormous size and power of George Foreman and the boxing ability of Ali. These were the only two fighters who ever defeated “SMOKIN JOE”. In this fight Frazier would be giving up too much size and length against Lewis. If you look at Lewis’s fight against the powerful David Tua who was very similar in size to Joe Frazier (Tua outweighed Frazier by 40 pounds), you can see how difficult it would have been to get inside against Lennox Lewis and his powerful jab. Lewis dominated his fight against Tua and I think he would have done the same against Frazier. Joe would have taken too much punishment trying to work his body shots and been knocked out anywhere after the 8th or 9th round.

Eastside Boxing Forum Totals:
Lewis by KO 46
Lewis by decision 8
Frazier by KO 32
Frazier by decision 5
Lewis winner 54 to 37 over Frazier

Jim Dorney East Side Boxing
This is (in my opinion) probably the worst match-up style-wise in the list for Lewis. Versus David Tua Lewis was able to stay on the outside & pot-shot all night long, but Frazier is a very different animal to Tua. Frazier’s hit just as hard if not harder, never tired & was very effective at wearing his man down. The only time he was ineffective was the two times he fought George Foreman, who is stylistically very different to Lewis. Lewis would not back down easily & would use his strength well, targeting Frazier’s bobbing head with overhand rights & clubbing hooks to the body, but I reckon this would play out similar to the Lewis vs. Mercer battle, with Joe getting, and deserving, a close decision verdict in a bruising war.
Result – Frazier beats Lewis by majority decision.

Joe Torcello, The Boxing Magazine.com
The question for Frazier would be, would he (at the very least) be able to keep his hands moving enough over the course of 10, 12 or 15 rounds to outpunch a giant Heavyweight opponent like a Klitschko or a Lewis and take a decision?

Or, would a punishing jab result in the kind of eye swelling he suffered against?

My belief is – the younger version who fought Ali the first time had enough speed and head movement to avoid “eating jabs” all night long against the best of the big men. Frazier would also be punching “up” which, as Rocky Marciano once said, gives a puncher an edge in being able to use his legs to generate additional power.

I don’t like the way he matches up against Vitali Klitschko for the same reasons he suffered two one-sided losses against George Foreman. I do, however, give him a decent chance at chopping down Wlad Klitschko or Lennox Lewis or being busy enough to take a decision against either man. Either way you look at it, he would take some hard punches in the process and have to survive some anxious moments over the course of the fight. Neither Lewis nor Klitschko exhibited the ability to soak up punishment or recover well after being badly hurt during their careers. Against Joe Frazier, a safety-first approach would almost certainly be in the back of both fighter’s minds.

Of the three, Vitali Klitschko would probably been Frazier’s toughest assignment. While I wouldn’t rule out knockout victories against Lewis or Wlad Klitschko, I have an easier time envisioning him outworking them and earning decision win over 12 rounds.

By Boxing Experts, Jim Carney
A tough one. Lewis as shown against Mike Tyson and David Tua, really knew how to use his height advantage against very short heavyweights( (though he had problems with two heavyweights of intermediate height, Ray Mercer and Evander Holyfield). Frazier fought well against taller opponents – Buster Mathis, Muhammad Ali and Joe Bugner.) Height was a factor in his losing bouts against George Foreman, but not so much as were Joe’s lack of skill under fire and the fact that he, an unusually slow starter, was taking on a fast starter and excellent finisher in Foreman. George’s advantage in sheer strength was also a major factor. It also should be noted that Tua fought a lazy, uninspired fight against Lewis. And Tyson was really washed up when he fought Lennox.

Besides his advantage in height and reach, Lennox would bring a solid weight advantage into the confrontation. Not much difference in foot speed, Frazier may have an edge in hand speed, threw more punches and probably takes a punch better. Overall skills are probably well-matched. Frazier was tireless and I don’t remember Lennox ever having a stamina problem. Both fought the best of their time. Frazier’s era was better, but Lennox has a solid record and resume too. Both men are excellent punchers.

The bout probably begins with Lennox giving Joe a pounding that Frazier never recovers from, or – at any rate – fails to make up for. The prediction here is that he will lose, by either kayo or decision and if by knockout, it’s tough to pick the round. But if Frazier comes out of the first round in decent shape, then his chin, volume of punches and even greater experience in life and death wars switches the edge to him. This could also be by kayo or decision, with the round for the kayo hard to determine. Ultimately then I pick Joe if there was no first round. Unfortunately for him that is an impossibility.

Thus, my nod goes to Lennox.

Frank Lotierzo: The Sweet Science
Frazier versus Lewis has some similarities to Marciano versus Lewis. Only Frazier had faster hands than Rocky and cut the ring off better. Frazier also faced a better jab than Lewis had in all three fights with Ali. Lewis' jab may have been harder than Ali's, but it was no where near as fast or accurate, and he didn't throw as many. Frazier made Ali miss with plenty of jabs in all three of their fights. Just ask Ali and Angelo Dundee, they have both admitted so often in public. Ali has been quoted as saying that Frazier was much tougher to hit than people think. Frazier was also great at cutting the distance and getting inside. He would've been vulnerable to getting caught coming in with Lewis' right hand, a punch Joe was vulnerable to early in a fight. However, if Frazier can get through the first couple of rounds with Lewis, which I think he could've. I see him knocking Lewis out after beating on his body and then coming up top with the hook to the head. Frazier would get inside better than Tua and do damage, and he wouldn't fold after one tough round like Tyson. Frazier also has plenty of power in his hook to put Lewis to sleep for the count of 10.

I like Frazier over Lewis, but I can definitely see a scenario where Lewis wins. If Frazier is around after the second round, it's all downhill for Lewis.

 

Source: Heavyweight Action-Dream Matchups (archive.org)

 

I was responding to a person who seems to think that Lewis would lose because he lost to Rahman and McCall. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt as not trolling; he just isn’t the sharpest knife in the drawer.

 

Can we agree that Mike Tyson loses to Suitan Ibragimov because Douglas beat Tyson?

 

It depends on a few things. Is Lewis able to get it off without leaving himself open? In Frazier/Ali 1a good portion of thr gameplan laid out by Futch was to lure Ali into throwing his uppercut. Eddie had detected a flawed in Ali's uppercut. Frazier was able to put Ali on his back while he was attempting a uppercut in round 15.

 

Lewis didn't telegraph his uppercut like Ali and is also a much harder hitter. His uppercuts have fight changing potential here and he is great at finding a home for them in close. He has the size and strength to manhandle Frazier about. Frazier had no answers to Foreman's uppercuts because Foreman was able to dictate the distance and pattern of the fight and didn't tip Frazier off. Lewis would do the same for me in that regard.