Canelo Bivol at 168 or 175?

If you would have read the initial posts you would know I already covered this point anticipating that this argument would be brought up. But your lack of reading comprehension puts you behind the 8 ball. You're showing up to class without doing the homework.

From post #1 in this topic :

"It's not unreasonable if the opponent has made it clear like Bivol has that he has no problem fighting at a lower weight. Now some people will point to Canelo saying he wanted to fight Mayweather at a catchweight in 2011, we've already discussed how misleading that interview was and why it was unreasonable and deceptive for Mayweather to do what he did. It was 2 years before they ended up fighting, and in those 2 years Mayweather went from fighting exclusively at 147 to moving up to 154 to fight Cotto and winning a title there. And in those 2 years Canelo, clearly was still putting on weight, he was much younger than Bivol is now and was still growing, so it became much tougher for Canelo to make 154 two years later after he was quoted about wanting a catchweight fight with Mayweather. And again, Canelo did not make the kind of statements right before he signed to fight Mayweather about how he has no problem dropping weight like what Bivol is making now about how he has no problem fighting at 168, that he's a small Light Heavyweight and could easily fight at 168."

 

I understand the difference. Reasonable minds cannot blame Canelo for fighting Bivol at 168 when Bivol has made it very clear he is willing to fight him at 168. He repeatedly said he is a small Light Heavyweight and thus would have no problem making 168 safely. Case closed. There is no reasonable argument to completely ignore these statements by Bivol and the fact that he's clearly a small Light Heavyweight and then turn around and blame Canelo for the fight being made at 168 like he's making demands of Bivol when both sides have expressed a desire and a willingness to make the fight happen at that weight. This is not a case of Bivol being pressured or given an ultimatum by Canelo or his team that he has to fight him at 168 or they'll be no fight. Quite to the contrary, Bivol has made it very clear that he wants the fight at 168. And not only that but he has made statements that he is willing and capable of fighting at 168 for many years long before Canelo was a possible opponent.

Bivol is not like Dawson who kept getting bigger and heavier and kept moving up weight classes. Like you said Bivol is a 175 lifer but is a guy who clearly hasn't gotten bigger or ever struggled making weight. I think we can all agree that Bivol is much more capable of making 168 safely than Dawson was when he went back down to 168 to fight Ward. I think it's much different when you pass through a weight class then establish yourself as a Champ at the weight class above, to then reverse course and move down again like Dawson did for Ward vs a guy like Bivol who stayed pretty much the exact same weight throughout his career to finally start to work harder in camp to shed some pounds which will probably only get him in better shape.

It's one thing if a fighter is already accustomed to shedding weight in training camp like Canelo, for example. Then to ask him to strain himself even more to make an even lower weight. That's what causes you to be drained and unhealthy. But with Bivol, it seems to me like he just doesn't have to train very hard for his fights at 175, at least not compared to other fighters who consistently push themselves to shed weight during camp to make a lower weight. So I think that's an important distinction, that it's easier to move down in weight when your body doesn't progressively get bigger throughout your career and when you aren't accustomed to shedding weight in camp. Then shedding weight is easier because it's something new that you haven't tried before. If you're already accustomed to shedding weight in camp throughout your career and your body is constantly getting heavier, then it's harder to reverse course and move back down when you're body continues to get bigger like Dawson was.

Yeah but every fighter is different. Just because one fighter makes statements that end up looking bad in retrospect doesn't mean that one fighter's miscalculation about himself means that another fighter is miscalculating himself in the same way.

I agree that "just because a guy says he can fight effectively at a lower weight doesn't mean he can", but it also doesn't mean he can't either. And with Bivol, unlike other fighters, he's clearly a small Light Heavyweight, doesn't have a body that constantly gets heavier, doesn't have a history of having to train hard to shed weight since he's small for the weight. He has all the ingredients of a fighter to being capable to make 168 safely. And in my estimation, with the right training and nutritonist, it may push him to become an even leaner, more fit, faster better fighter.

 

Good points but I don't think we really know how smart it is for Bivol to say that until we actually see him at 168-lbs. It could be brilliant if Bivol gets into the best shape of his life, makes 168 easily like he says he can, gives the fight of his life, beats Canelo at 168-lbs and becomes unified 168-lb Champ. That'd be legendary.

I just think we've become so conditioned from seeing other fighters miscalculating their ability to move down in weight or being pressured into it unfairly (Canelo vs Mayweather, Cotto vs Pac, Geale vs Cotto, etc) that now given all these bad examples of fighters being weight bullied into draining themselves that we pretty much expect any attempt to do so to result in disaster without really looking at each situation on its own. It's like we're just applying these other bad examples to this example as if every situation is the same. It's not, each situation is completely different.

Posters here are so predisposed to casting aspersions against Canelo and just feeding into a narrative that makes Canelo look bad like a weight bully that makes them feel better about themselves and their own biases without paying attention to the real situation here. I think Bivol is uniquely suited to pull this off, and as I pointed out in the opening posts, he has much more to gain from moving down to 168 than fighting Canelo at 175. In terms of hardware and legacy, he'll be respected even more if he fights Canelo at 168. And yes many people won't give Canelo full credit if they fight at 168, but lets be real, many of these people don't give Canelo credit anyway even when he fights fighters at their best weight. Canelo could move up to 175 beat Bivol by decision and many will still say it was rigged for fixed for Canelo to win.

Haters are always gonna hate on Canelo no matter what he does, and you can't let ignorant petty haters get their way. What you do is you turn the tables on them as I have done here. You expose their faulty mindset and narratives with facts and sound reasoning.

 

I think the amount of credit he'll get will depend on the condition of Bivol. If he looks lethargic and drained, Canelo won't get credit. If he looks great, Canelo will get more credit. People are scared of the unknown. Most posters here who dislike Canelo, they're not interested in fairness, all they care about is seeing anything happen that gives Canelo's opponents any and every possible advantage. Their entire life revolves around the possibilty of Canelo losing. Canelo could fight Bivol with one arm tied behind his back and if Canelo loses that to them is fair. You can't reason with these kind of people. It is pure unmitigated hatred of envy and there's no logic to it whatsoever.

Sorry I don't buy this argument. It would be no more of a cash grab to offer to fight Canelo at 175 vs 168. Canelo's trainer Eddy Reynose has already said he is interested in taking on Beterbiev at 175. So Bivol knows Canelo is fully capable and willing to move up to 175 again. Bivol could have said he is interested in fighting Canelo at 175 and it would be just as much of a cash grab. Bivol doesn't need to move down to 168 to make this fight happen. It just so happens that he and his promoter seem to want it to be at 168. Now you can make the argument that he's trying to entice Canelo to agree to fight him by offering to come down, but that is purely conjecture as well. It's all a matter of how we interpret all this. My interpretation is that Bivol simply believes he can make 168 safely and that's where he wants to fight Canelo at. It doesn't mean that he's offering to fight him at 168 for any additional $$. It could be as simple as he just wants to win a title in another weight division, and that he feels that he's close to that weight anyway, that he can make it safely, and that he has more to gain by doing that from a hardware and legacy perspective.

No, you misinterpreted what I said. I said that some fighters clearly get bigger and bigger throughout their career, like Dawson, RJJ, Canelo, etc. It's harder to lose weight when your body continues to grow and you naturally continue to progressively put on weight. It's easier to lose weight when your body stays the same weight naturally throughout your career like Bivol since you don't have to fight your body naturally putting on weight.

Fighters who constantly are used to shedding weight in training camp throughout their career to make the lowest weight they can, it's harder and dangerous to ask them to lose more weight since they are already working so hard just to fight at the lower weight. But a fighter who's body stays the same size who doesn't have to work hard to make weight, it's easier for them to lose weight because it's not something they ever really tried to do before.

Fighters whose bodies have a tendancy to get bigger throughout their career have to work hard to maintain their weight and stayin their current weight class. Think Danny Garcia when he fought Mauricio Herrera. Danny's body kept growing and he had to kill himself to make that weight, and many thought he lost vs Herrera. He outgrew that weight class and moved up to welter after that.

Fighters who don't grow like Bivol they don't have this problem. They just stay naturally at the weight they are at without having to struggle to shed weight just to stay the same weight. When they do shed weight they can actually move down because before they never had to even try to shed weight because there body isn't constantly growing to where they need to train super hard to shed weight every camp.

 

I don't think Canelo will dominate him, not at 168 or 175. Bivol is too good and skilled to be dominated. If Canelo wins clearly at 168, of course his detractors will try and discredit the win. But if Bivol looks good at 168, but loses a competitive decision I think as long as it's a good fight most fans will be happy and satisfied. Only the ragers will cry about it.

I personally think that Canelo vs Bivol at 168 would be more entertaining than at 175, mainly because it's more of an unknown and intrigue of how Bivol will look at 168 and if he can pull it off. And he'd be fighting the absolute best Canelo rather than a probably slower more economical Canelo at a weight class higher than he's at his best at.

Lets be honest, Canelo vs Kovalev was pretty boring until the KO as far as Canelo's fights are concerned. Canelo was super cautious and super low output vs Kovalev. We don't want to see that type of a fight vs Bivol, I'd rather see the best Canelo vs possibly the best Bivol which could be at 168. Again it remains to be seen if Bivol will look better or worse at 168 than he is at 175, but I think fighting Canelo at Canelo's best weight would earn Bivol at lot of respect especially if it turns out that he's true to his word that he can make 168 safely. In my mind, if they fight at 175 it will be a more economic lower output chess match, but at 168 it could be a more high octane faster paced more explosive more entertaining match. With more on the line for Bivol if Bivol wins, making it more interesting.

 

I agree in regards to Beterbiev. Beterbiev is a full fledged LHW. Bivol on the other hand while a career LHW is not a full fledged LHW. He's a small LHW who could make 168.