Away from comparisons with ATG champions, I actually like both these guys. Fun fighters to watch. Different attributes. One tall and explosive. The other a bit shorter a bit slower and explosive. Both guys load up and equally vulnerable against the best fighters. I think the problem some have with this kind of fighter (and yes, they are the same kind of fighter) is they go through a list of top trumps. This guys punches harder. This guy punches faster. This guy has Longer arms. This guy is more athletic. The main point they miss off is Levels. What level do they win at? They don’t ask “which guy doesn’t have to or has to show something he has not shown so far in order to win”. Which should really be a big odds making factor here. Both knockout guys for fun. But only one of them has knocked out good fighters. I think Ken Norton was still a good fighter. I think Ellis was still a good fighter. Being absolutely honest, Has Earnie shown he can flatten a faster explosive big guy called Cleveland Williams who has not knocked out a good fighter though? Shavers has shown he could be knocked out by Ron Stander and Jerry Quarry. And Williams has also famously shown he could be knocked out. So nothing is actually impossible. without more evidence of Shavers flattening a big fast “stepping stone smasher upper” I hold back on completely writing off Cleveland Big Cat Williams.
Williams is not quite as powerful as Shavers, and does not have a great chin, but it is better than Shavers. I could see Williams having no problem keeping Shavers back with his heavy jabs, and tearing him to pieces in the knockout round. He could put Shavers away in 1-3 rounds no problem. Also, Williams was more accurate a puncher than Shavers, so he is more likely to land a significant punch first, and he could open fast too. He would do what Quarry did to Shavers, except it would be much more devastating.
Good grief are you still pushing this again? Ernie Terrell was undoubtedly a good fighter, had never been stopped before or again (excluding his last fight when he was but a shell) and soon went on to become the 2nd best fighter of the mid 60s and hold the WBA title. Alex Miteff (ranked) drew with Chuvalo, then later lost a disputed SD to him in Chuvalo's home state, knocked down Henry Cooper before losing a close fight, defeated Nino Valdez, Willie Besmanoff, Wayne Bethea, Alonzo Johnson 2X, etc and would later put on an excellent performance against Ali, and even hurt him before being stopped in a close fight. Roger Rischer (ranked) held wins over Charlie Powell 2X (both dominations), Henry Cooper, Young Jack Johnson, etc. John Holman was ranked #4 just the previous year and involved in the tournament for Marciano's title, and had arguably one of the best KO victims list of anyone who never won the title; Ezzard Charles, Elmer Ray, Cesar Brion, Boardwalk Billy Smith, Bob Satterfield, Willie Bean, Larry Watson, Julio Mederos. Young Jack Johnson, though inconsistent, held wins over Folley, Charles, Besmanoff, Bean, among others Alonzo Johnson was also ranked (though not at that point I believe), regarded as a good and very durable fighter, never having been stopped or even dropped, and held wins over Valdez, Pastrano, Hunter, among others and was also coming off an excellent performance against Ali just months earlier. Here's how he fared against Williams. "Cleveland (Big Cat) Williams, who did to Alonzo Johnson what 29 other opponents couldn't do, said today he wants to fight 2nd ranked heavyweight Eddie Machen next. Johnson, 195, stepped into the ring last night without having been knocked out in his previous 29 fights. Williams, 210, took just two minutes and twenty six seconds to wipe that away. Johnson never landed a blow. Williams put him away with a flashing left hook." -United Press International He also stopped Herring who by your own admission was "not a bad fighter" and an "OK fighter" I know you so badly want to believe it but unfortunately, it's simply not true Williams didn't stop good fighters. It's also hilarious that you claim Williams never beat good fighters, dismissing the multiple top ten contenders he beat while simultaneously giving credit to Shavers for his wins over a shot 33 year Ellis who'd only win 2 of his 7 remaining fights (both against clubfighters) and a very past prime 36 year old Norton who was very lucky to get a draw against Ledoux a journeyman (being very generous to Ledoux here) and even luckier the ref stopped the fight a minute early while Ledoux was battering Norton senseless putting him literally over the top rope.
You are the resident Cleveland Williams authority in here now Swag who would you put forward as his top 5 wins?? Miteff, Terrell, Billy Daniels................it gets tough at this point. I've studied the era up a bit but it's a bit thin on the ground past these. I'm tempted to put Bethea in but he wasn't getting much of anything done. Shavers i would say possibly a green Young, Ellis, Clark, Williams and Norton. Bugner could potentially pop in there for someone.
Not sure who I’d pick. Both were seasoned warriors who entered the ring many times. Far more than the average heavyweights of today stick around for. Williams has the slight edge in height and reach. Possibly stamina as well but I say that with no real conviction. Both men could bang but I’m guessing Shavers had the edge in power. Their chins are pretty close as well. Neither man had a weak chin nor an iron one. I guess it really boils down to who gets off to the better start and is able to land his Sunday shots with regularity or maybe land that BIG one first.. Good fight....
I probably agree with Shavers top 5 wins though I'm not sure about Young he was still VERY green, 7-3, and just coming off a lost to the obscure Neumann. I would probably like Bugner over him seeing as he had a very decent 80s career beating names like Tillis and Page. Williams top 5 wins. Hmmm I know Gazelle asked me this a while back and my answers I believe were Miteff, Terrell, Daniels 2X, and Rischer. If Daniels can't count twice, I would very much like to throw in the Alonzo Johnson victory which is imo very overlooked, and underappreciated. A very impressive stoppage of a durable fighter, who'd gone the distance or beaten men like Mildenberger, Daniels, Ali, Miteff, Machen, Valdez, Folley without once leaving his feet. Williams stopped him in the first round, without taking a punch! Fun fact, Folley said the following "I saw the openings but just couldn't take advantage of them. This Johnson is a smart fighter." Incidentally Max Baer was the ref for this fight and would pass away less than 3 days later.
I can't say i entirely disagree but a possible counter to this would be that Young beat Dunn 4 fights later, beat Garcia at the 7 fight later mark and drew with Shavers himself at the 8 fight mark before schooling Lyle the very next fight. Neumann had actually beat Chuck Wepner (who was on a march toward being a Ring top #10 rated fighter) right before fighting Jimmy so i wouldn't call him obscure. He was probably not far outside the 10. Terrell who often gets mentioned for Williams, had more fights than Young when they met their respective opponents but was not all that much more advanced than Young via how many fights off the top 10 they were. Williams was 7 fights off being a top 10 contender while Young needed 9. Young advanced extremely quickly. I'm inclined to actually leave Young in there as silly as it might seem. Suffice to say both are extremely short of good wins after the 3 name mark. Ironically both are far more known for fine efforts in losing battles. Shavers obviously has by far the best two top end wins. Ellis was Ring rated #3 (behind Ali, Frazier and Foreman mind you) and Norton was Ring rated #2 behind Ali and Holmes. It was also the way he dispatched both of them. Between them they lasted less than 5 minutes. From memory McGrain had Shavers around 50 odd and Williams missed out on the hundred. Of course that means little in the ring head to head.
#6 rated 17-1 Howard Smith was a good win for Shavers. Smith was a big fast guy. He had knocked out Larry Middleton and beat Weaver, Henry Clark and Johnny Bordreoux. Smiths wins must compare to Cleveland Williams best wins? This content is protected
I think that Cleveland Big Cat Williams takes out Earnie Shavers right away. At his peak, Williams broke Sonny Liston's nose before the Big Ugly Bear stopped him. Shavers can punch, but the taller Big Cat does what Jerry Quarry did in 1973, catching Earnie first to score the knockout right away in round 1. Otherwise it could turn into a long night for Williams.
This is the hypothetical fight where I finally see Williams as a favorite. Neither had a great chin and Shavers likely hit harder, but it wouldn't matter. Williams was better boxer with reach advantage and decent enough jab to stop Shavers at range. He's also quicker and slightly more versatile fighter. I'd expect Williams to stop Shavers in 3-5 rounds. That said, Earnie could hit him with something big and Williams didn't fight well when hurt.
"Young had eleven fights between 1969 and 73.’ He won only seven of them, getting stopped by killer puncher Earnie Shavers. The loss was devastating but Young learned from it. Don’t trade with a killer. Work on your defense. Young did, and for the next three years, he didn’t lose a fight."
Jesus Christ, you cannot be serious. I honestly don't even know where to start with this. Weaver was making his pro debut ffs when Smith beat him. It's funny because you dismiss Williams win over a "green" 23 year old Terrell who'd been fighting for 4 years at that point and years away from a loss (a disputed SD to former contender Wayne Bethea), yet hyping up Smith's win over a debuting Weaver. The irony is overwhelming. It's as laughable as it is pathetic. Clark was in his 30s, at the end of his career, on a losing streak he would never recover from, and coming off a brutal KO loss to Shavers, and still knocked Smith down before the referee had a seizure and was replaced, and in the chaos that ensued gave Smith enough time to recover. Middleton was exactly the kind of guy you'd accuse Williams of padding his record with had he been on it. My favorite, Johnny "Bordreoux" (It's actually "Boudreaux") was probably slightly higher than a club fighter with one "win" of even remote significance, getting off the floor to beat Ledoux in a decision so controversial, it actually sparked a grand jury investigation. So no, despite your agenda, Smith's victories don't "compare to Cleveland Williams best wins" or even that of some of his victims. Also, can you provide a source for Smith's #6 rating? I was unable to find anything during my research, and I'm certainly not going to take your word for it.
it’s mentioned in the commentary but I guess you did not want to watch the fight because you won’t want to have seen Shavers dealing with a similar size & shaped opponent to Williams who had equal wins at a similar level to him. I do not deny Weaver was nobody back then. He’s a name worth mentioning though. If Williams knocked out a debut Floyd Patterson or Ingo johansson you would be all over it. and within your right to mention it. it’s as close to a signature knockout win as Smith has. I don’t think you know much about Larry Middleton. If you watch him the guy is identical to Tony Tucker. He had a good career actually. He is at least the level of Williams best wins. He’s above Billy Daniels, Alex Metiff and john Holman. Middleton broke Joe Bugners jaw and beat him out of sight in London. He gave Jerry Quarry and Ken Norton very good fights. Close fights. He lost to a prime Quarry by just a quarter of a point. On that form I think he could match Machen and Terrell in 50-50 fights. Smith was fighting Clark for the California State title. It is the identical level as Cleveland competing for the Texas State title against Terry Daniels..a win on par with anything Williams achieved. so it is the exact same comparison here. The recent loss to Shavers ended a very good run that had gotten Clark an Indian summer world rating in one of the best eras in heavyweight boxing. If the comparison is Williams, then it’s a solid win. Don’t forget Smith actually knocked Middleton out. Whereas your guy Williams is the best puncher without a signature knockout win.
