Whose career is ranked higher: Ali pre-1967 or Ali Post 1970?

I agree that Ali was arguably a much better fighter near the end of the 1960s than he ever was in the 1970s. And he did look unbeatable at times in the 1960s. And he did end his "first" career unbeaten.

That said, if he didn't fight at all after the 1960s, I think Ali's career would be viewed much more harshly today.

Remember:

* Ali was dropped twice in his first career - against Sonny Banks and Henry Cooper. We learned in the second half of his career he had a great chin. IF that second half never occurred, Ali would probably have been viewed as a 'chinny' fighter by some. If he never beat Frazier, Foreman, Shavers, Lyle, etc., and we were left with him getting dropped by Banks and Cooper, I doubt most would be picking Ali's chin to hold up in any mythical matchups against the big punchers in history.

* The Doug Jones fight would take on much greater importance. That was a controversial decision at the time. Doug Jones was a top light heavy contender and occasionally broke the heavyweight top 10, but he wasn't a great fighter. Yet, he arguably outpointed Ali. Given how many guys mopped the floor with Jones, that doesn't help Ali's standing. And Ali was supposed to rematch with Jones after Ali won the title, but Doug lost a fight to late sub Billy Daniels. Which doesn't help, either.

* Archie Moore, the third-biggest name on his ledger in that 'first' career, was totally DONE. He was 46 years old. It was his last pro fight.

* Sonny Liston quit on his stool and appeared to take a dive in the rematch. If Ali never fought after the 1960s, those two controversial fights against Liston would be Ali against his best opponent. People still aren't sure what to make of either fight.

* Ali beat Patterson in 1965 but Floyd was having really bad back spasms the entire fight. That would've been the only time they met. Patterson fought much better after that against other top heavyweights. So that win may have been chalked up as Ali fought an injured Patterson.

* So the BIG THREE on Ali's ledger would've been Moore, Liston and Patterson, and all three opponents clearly weren't their best.

When you consider how Frazier treated Doug Jones and George Chuvalo, and how Foreman treated Chuvalo, and Chuvalo went 15 with Ali and gave him a hard night in their one and only fight, that's not going to age well, either.

Had Ali never returned, I think he's rated WELL BELOW guys like Foreman and Frazier and maybe even folks like Quarry.

What also may have taken on greater importance were the Ali-Ellis sparring sessions in the 1960s. Remember, Ali, while in exile, sparred with Ellis to help him prepare for a title defense against Cooper (which never ocurred).

That may have been the last time Ali ever stepped in the ring with a person (at the time) who held the WBA belt. Maybe historians are studying those films.

But given how poorly Ellis performed against Frazier, again, and considering Ali's knockdowns against Banks and Cooper, I doubt anyone is picking Ali over Frazier in "mythical matchups."

I think Ali would be respected for going undefeated. And he'd probably have some die-hard fans. But coming out of the 60s ... knocking off the top three contenders (Quarry, Bonavena and Ellis) and warring with the champ Frazier in SuperFight 1 showed everyone Ali was a LOT better than the other contenders and he and Frazier were close to equals at that point.

Without that run in 1970-71, I think some of those guys would be viewed more highly today than even Ali. (Hell, Foreman was an 8-1 favorite even with Ali beating a lot of those guys.)

Ending his career in the 1960s wouldn't have been enough. He needed that second run.

 

Although I don't think I'd go far enough as to say that Quarry would rank over Ali (except among the few who used to rank Quarry above, e.g., Marciano), the sparring footage point with Ellis is very interesting. You may well see hypothetical Ellis/Ali fights, and it could take on the kind of status that the sparring sessions between Ali and Marciano did on film.

His best win against a prime fighter who wasn't injured, suspected of having thrown the fight, old, etc. would probably be Terrell. Which is honestly not a bad scalp, especially considering how much of a slaughter it was.

 

Terrell had had a very good run until he met Ali. Not an exciting style, but the guy was certainly effective.

It would be strange to have Quarry ahead of 60's Ali. Well beaten by Ali's former sparring partner in his prime and also lost to Floyd according to most observers and of course to Chuvalo, even though I think he claimed a mistimed count for that. And his win wasn't as good as 60's Ali either, so that doesn't float for me.

 

I don't know if Quarry would've been rated above Ali. I'm just saying if Ali never fought in the 70s, then he doesn't fight Quarry twice (and Quarry doesn't lose to him twice).

Ellis doesn't lose to Ali, either. And Ellis beat Ali in the amateurs. So, that's what we'd have to go on.

Quarry beat Patterson. Quarry beat Lyle. Quarry beat Shavers. With no Ali, Quarry might get a rematch with Frazier for the title in the early 70s. Quarry may fight Foreman for the title.

Lot's of things change. Without Ali, Norton doesn't spring out of nowhere, break Ali's jaw and get a title shot.

Without Ali, maybe Quarry and Ellis rematch to get a second shot at Frazier. Maybe Quarry and Bonavena fight to get a title shot. Maybe Frazier fights Bonavena a third time, and the Frazier-Bonavena three-fight series is the one we're all talking about decades later.

Without Ali, Frazier probably is remembered more fondly. Foreman, too. Quarry, Ellis and Bonavena may have received second title shots at Frazier or gotten one with Foreman. Patterson may have gotten a title shot against Joe. Hell, Patterson may have kept fighting into his 40s. He beat Bonavena before losing the return to Ali. If he doesn't fight Ali, he's sitting pretty with the win over Bonavena.

And Norton may not ever gotten a fight with any of them.

Lots of things change. Holmes never becomes an Ali sparring partner and never travels the world with him. What happens to Larry?

If Norton never gets his big "break" (no pun intended) and Holmes never learns from Ali, how does that impact Duane Bobick's career? Bobick doesn't fight Norton. Holmes never becomes Holmes (and remains the guy Bobick beat in the Trials) ...

Shakes up everything.

And, with most of his name wins with askerisks (Moore, Liston, Patterson), I think Ali is viewed in a much lesser light, too. Those are his "big" wins.

 

No, i was talking about your claim that the fight against don gockell was already signed long before Valdez fought Moore in a eliminator bout.

 

Don't really get a handle on this. There are all kids of maybes for Quarry if Ali never returned, but what we know is that he had several losses in his prime (one to someone who was Ali's sparring partner a year earlier), should have lost to Floyd according to most observers and also a lesser win column than 29-0 Ali. Just no case for him. Period.

 

I said "before" not "long before", so I don't know why you added the "long". But, no, I don't have a source that the fight was signed more than 14 days before the fight, but do you feel that one is really needed? How many HW title fights are signed less than two weeks before the actual fight?

 

Of course, you claimed Rocky should have fought Valdes instead of gockell (since he was the highest ranking contender at that time) and i said Nino already lost his opportunity for a title shot and his ranking #1 since archie moore whupped him in a eliminator bout that happened before Rocky stepped into the ring with Don.
The rock had no obligation to fight him after that.

But then, you stated Rocky signed to fight Don before the Valdes-Moore bout took place, i wanted to know where did you get that interesting information from?
If you have no sources, why did you even write this, despite having no proof of it?

 

Holmes was also former Ali sparring partner. Norton was a former Frazier sparring partner. Both were quite good, I hear.

 

You're still viewing this like Ali came back and beat all these guys. If he quit in the 1960s, he wouldn't have.

Ellis wouldn't be known as Ali's sparring partner any more than Larry Holmes is remembered as Ali's sparring partner or Ken Norton is remembered as Joe Frazier's.

Ellis primarily became Ali's sparring partner in the 1970s. That was his main job.

In the 1960s, Ellis wasn't primarily Ali's sparring partner. He wasn't even a heavyweight during most of Ali's 60s career. He was a middleweight.

If Ali didn't come back in the 1970s, Ellis and Ali never would've fought as pros. So we'd have Ellis and Ali splitting fights as amateurs. Ellis and Ali sparring occasionally in the 1960s before Ellis became a heavyweight. And Ellis winning the WBA Heavyweight Title when Ali retires.

Ellis beating Martin, Bonavena, Quarry in the tournament and defending against Patterson might be viewed more favorably than Ali's defenses in the 1960s, with Floyd's bad back and Liston looking for a spot on the floor.

Ellis became nearly subservient to Ali in the 1970s. It was kind of pathetic. In the 1960s, it wasn't like that.

Ali didn't face a lot of his peers in the 1960s. Most of his name opponents were fighters who made their names when he was still an amateur (Patterson, Moore, Liston, Zora, London, Williams, etc.).

The lone 'peer' he may have faced was Terrell. And Ernie Terrell wasn't a factor in the era after Ali was forced into retirement in the late 60s. Ernie retired the same year he lost to Ali.

You'd have a very young Ali beating a lot of older guys in the 60s. Then Ali retiring and missing out on the WAVE of fighters closer to his age - like Frazier, Ellis, Quarry, Bonavena, Lyle, Shavers, climbing the ranks in the early 70s.

So they "may" have been held in higher regard since they faced off ... and Ali may have been viewed as the outlier since he missed out on everything.

 

You wrote that Moore beat Valdes 14 days before Marciano faced Cockell. Don't you agree that it would be very strange if Rocky and Cockell hadn't signed for their fight more than 14 days before it happened, i e before Moore beat Valdes?

I took it for self-evident that a title fight wasn't signed just 14 days before. Do you think this is a strange assumption?

 

Where have I said that Ellis wasn't good?

 

Well, you pointed out a couple times that he was Ali's former sparring partner, in a context that indicated that this fact made the people he beat (like Quarry) less impressive.

Were you getting at something totally different that I misinterpreted?

 

Ellis was Ali's main sparring partner when Ali went into exile and he was a HW then. This was about a year before Ellis clearly beat Quarry.

Ali din't face a lot of his peer? Are you serious? He beat all the guys that were rated top 10 by The Ring when he won the title. And Quarry lost to an older Chuvalo than the one Ali beat and arguably to an older Floyd.

Drop this. It isn't a lucid argument.

 

I think Ellis was very good, but the assumption is that a fighter is better than his sparring partners. Just as I'd say that Frazier was better than Norton when he was Joe's sparring partner. And Ellis beat Quarry shortly after serving as Ali's sparring partner. And that doesn't help the argument that Quarry should be viewed as being as good as that Ali.