Whose career is ranked higher: Ali pre-1967 or Ali Post 1970?

Ellis had already beaten Martin and Bonavena by the time he fought Quarry. He then beat Patterson (somewhat controversially, but still) in the very next fight. All of these fights are on film, and we know that all of the fighters in all of those fights were trying to win.

I think this means a lot more than his employment arrangements with Ali before Folley. More to the point, I think people looking back on an Ali-free 1970s would conclude that Ellis was already rapidly on the rise when he prepped Ali for Folley, and had already outgrown the need to hide in Ali's shadow by the time he was scoring his WBA tournament victories.

 

I don't think it takes anything from Ellis's accomplishments at HW that he was Ali's sparring partner at the time he started to rise as a HW. I just don't think it's in Quarry's favour in a direct comparison with Ali that he lost to his sparring partner.

 

They were stablemates, for God's sake. Don't you understand what that means? Everybody Freddie Roach trains at the Wild Card Gym spars each other. Amir Khan isn't Manny Pacquiao's sparring partner.

See how that works?

George Foreman and Sonny Liston sparred together because they had the same manager and they were stablemates. Who refers to Foreman as Sonny Liston's sparring partner? IF Foreman beats a guy, who says, well that guy lost to Sonny Liston's sparring partner?

Ali hired people to work as his sparring partners in the 1960s. Ellis wasn't a hired hand in the 60s. They were stablemates. In the 70s, Ellis was a sparring partner. A hired one.

ALL we're saying is IF Ali NEVER came back after the 1960s, and Ellis was never his sparring partner in the 70s, it never would've been brought up. Once Ellis won the heavyweight belt, he was the WBA heavyweight champ.

 

I stand corrected. I guess he remained a sparring partner right up until retirement day.

As I said, though, I don't think sparring partner status means much. The fact that Ali apparently handled Ellis easily in sparring according to the NYT is more interesting. But sparring stories mean very little either, IMO. Ali beat up Ingo in a sparring session, but he wasn't ready for a title shot at that time.

 

Wikipedia and NY times both refer to him as sparring partner and that's all I heard him referred as: Nytimes also wrore that Ali had "handled him easily". Just admit that you were wrong.

But I have actually never heard that Ellis was his sparring partner in the 70's. I could have missed it, of course, but please provide a source for it.

 

I assumed you knew the difference between a stablemate and a hired sparring partner. That was where I was wrong.

Sometimes I forget who knows what around here.

 

"Styles make fights (and sparring matches)," counters the 60s-Retirement-Timeline boxing enthusiast, before reentering his dimension hopping Tardis.

 

Just to avoid later misunderstandings, I know nothing whatsoever. I basically just hit my computer keyboard at random, and so far, I've been lucky.

 

If a fighter uses someone as a sparring partner for several years, the implication is usually that he is better than the sparring partner. Just partnering up for a sparring session is another thing.

But this was an aside that really grew. The main point is that Quarry had prime losses Ali didn't, did worse against common opponents than 60's Ali and didn't have as good a win column. So I see no argument whatsoever that he should have been ranked ahead of that Ali.

 

Jesus you're full of it.

Now provide source for Ellis being Ali's sparring partner in the 70's.

 

Look up every training article on Ali defending his title in the 1970s.

Apparently, you're just picking this stuff up.

They reportedly almost cancelled the Shavers fight because Ellis dropped Ali in sparring.

 

As I said at the outset, I don't think Quarry would rank close to Ali. But I think there's something to Dubblechin's broader point. I can see people thinking that Ali would have picked up a losses against the young, hungry contenders from the early 70s, who came from his own age group. If not Quarry, then Bonavena or Ellis himself. Or even a healthy Patterson, since that might still be a live argument. Without Ali's later 70s run, Patterson vs Ali would take on greater importance as a could-have-been match between prime champions that ended unsatisfactorily due to bad luck.

 

Never heard of it and can't find a thing, so do me the favour and provide a source.

 

As an aside, this discussion is also kind of funny, and a good example of how forum arguments work

We've gone from broad discussion about Ali's status without his 70s career, to a fine-grained dispute about Jimmy Ellis's salary arrangements in Ali's 1970s training camps as the crux of the dispute.