Whose career is ranked higher: Ali pre-1967 or Ali Post 1970?

When Vitaly quit while ahead on the cards it's hard to believe that the injury he claimed didn't play a part. Likewise when one sees Cerdan not being able to use one of his arms from the first round.

But when I don't see a clear shift in the fight that can be tied to an injury, I don't think much of it.

 

Ellis sparring Ali on an exhibition tour n 1979 before Ali vacates the title.

https://www.nytimes.com/1979/03/13/...ntil-he-enters-ring-shuns-south-africans.html

Ellis and Ali sparring in an exhibition in Denmark a couple months later in 1979.
https://www.julienslive.com/lot-details/index/catalog/127/lot/55590/

Ali and Ellis on an exhibition tour in India in 1980.

https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/when-muhammad-ali-came-madras-and-held-hands-mgr-44338

Ellis promoted from Sparring Partner to Assistant Trainer for Ali-Holmes in 1980.

https://www.si.com/boxing/2015/09/24/muhammad-ali-38-8-million-purse-mountain

 

Ok, so your position is basically that Patterson's injury did not appear to have been as serious as he claimed; that it was more or less a post-fight excuse like Haye's toe?

 

No, you can see them working on his back, so it was certainly legit. But he himself said it started in the 5th I think and by then Ali was clearly winning. If it was the other way around, and Ali didn't get the upper hand until one could see them work on Floyd's back in the corner it would be very different. But it wasn't like that. It just continued to play out like it started.

 

Fair point, but I don't know whether 5 rounds is a fair sample. Both guys trained and planned for 15, didn't they?

If Floyd had slipped on water and snapped his kneecap at the start of round 6 -- following the same first 5 rounds that you saw -- would that count as a decisive Ali victory?

 

That would be less satisfying since there would be a very clear shift in Floyd not being able to stand up. In this case Ali started out dominating and continued to so against a Floyd that still was slippingshots and trying to land punches back. There was no such clear shift in his effort and effectiveness. That's clearly different from not being able to stand up.

 

I've seen it argued that Ali basically took his foot off the gas against Floyd when he realized that Floyd couldn't effectively defend himself. The more cynical interpretation was that Ali intended to "punish" Patterson, but the more reasonable account -- which is supposed to come from Patterson -- is that Ali took all of the power off of his punches because he didn't want to beat on a clearly injured man.

Assuming this is accurate, the competitive part of the fight essentially ended in round 5. So it would be more analogous to the broken kneecap example. One sided fight, followed by unrelated serious injury.

 

And I also look at such things in context. If Ali had looked as good as he did against Liston and Floyd, but then started to struggle against lesser fighters then I'd feel more inclined to think that his performances against them were made to look better than they were by injuries etc.

But since he continued to beat contenders much like one would think he would do based on his performances against Liston and Floyd, I'm more inclined to think that he actually was as good as he looked in those fights.

 

Could be, but to me it looked like he tried to land and Floyd did a good job defending himself under the circumstances.

Then there's also that Dundee claimed that Ali's sparring partners suffered similar injuries because of Ali's straight punches often landing on their forehead and depressing the spine. Could also be.

So there are, as often, unanswered questions and we can't, as almost always, never know 100%, but I feel enough satisfied looking at how the fight played out before and after the injury.

 

See these?

Ellis works as Ali's sparring partner in 1975
https://www.nytimes.com/1975/06/10/archives/bugner-not-ali-makes-prediction.html

Ellis works as Ali's sparring partner in 1976
https://www.nytimes.com/1976/06/25/...nt-in-tokyo-tonight-inoki-is-tokyo-rival.html
https://www.nytimes.com/1976/09/25/...-concludes-training-by-sparring-9-rounds.html

Ellis drops Ali twice in sparring in 1977
https://www.nytimes.com/1977/09/22/archives/ellis-floors-ali-twice.html

Ali-Ellis exhibition cancelled 1978
https://www.nytimes.com/1978/03/30/...ith-gerulaitis-win-but-fleming-is-upset-.html

Ellis sparring Ali on an exhibition tour n 1979 before Ali vacates the title.
https://www.nytimes.com/1979/03/13/...ntil-he-enters-ring-shuns-south-africans.html
Ellis and Ali sparring in an exhibition in Denmark a couple months later in 1979.
https://www.julienslive.com/lot-details/index/catalog/127/lot/55590/

Ali and Ellis on an exhibition tour in India in 1980.
https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/when-muhammad-ali-came-madras-and-held-hands-mgr-44338

Ellis promoted from Sparring Partner to Assistant Trainer for Ali-Holmes in 1980.
https://www.si.com/boxing/2015/09/24/muhammad-ali-38-8-million-purse-mountain

 

I was quite satisfied by the first ones you provided, but, yes, I see them.

 

Just to pick up on this, Marciano signed to fight Cockell in February 1955, and Moore-Valdes wasn't signed till the following month. Jack Kearns tried to pitch the idea that Marciano was ducking both Moore and Valdes and that their fight was for the true world title.

https://pasteboard.co/KhXJgYG.png
https://pasteboard.co/KhXJGJ5.png

 

Thanks! Almost nice with background info.

But as I said, I don't hold this against Rocky since he faced his nr 1 on every other occasion, and Cockell was after all his nr. 2.