Why did Ali get so bloated?

Read our convo. light lifting with boxing training. lol
You point out the holes and he just plugs his ears and keeps talking nonsense.

 

I don't know. That's why it's so interesting.

He very likely did some heavy lifting here and there, but it's unlikely he was consistently doing it while also doing the regular boxing training like a Frank Bruno or Anthony Joshua because the knowledge on how to maintain big muscle with good cardio wasnt available at the time. The vast majority of boxers simply did not do hardcore power lifting stuff back then.

The only way that could have happened is if

-Norton and his trainers just for some odd reason had knowledge no one else would have for another 20 years (and didn't share it with anyone else and it was never documented, which is odd given how popular the 70's boxing scene was)

-Norton was a PED cheat and never got caught (requires evidence)

-Norton was a genetic freak who also worked extremely hard.

Some of these options are more likely than others.

The thing about modern guys like Bruno and Joshua, even by today's standards their gas tank/work rate isn't particularly amazing. Norton stands out because he was very jacked yet had very impressive gas tank/work rate for a heavyweight.

 

I'm "slow" but it took you a week to get what I was saying and you apparently don't know how to use the quote feature.

ad hominems are not a valid rebuttal btw. Let me know when you learn how to actually form an argument and address what somebody said because you are horrible at it.

 

If you had an ounce of knowledge on the things you claim you do you'd understand how dumb you look. Give it time.

 

If you had an ounce of knowledge on how to properly debate you'd know why I'm laughing at your replies.

Even if for the sake of argument I was flat out wrong, you haven't properly debunked or responded to anything I wrote. You just keep using insults like a 12 year old, misinterpreting what I wrote, not addressing anything, and shifting the goal posts. It's like talking to a chimp with ADD.

You haven't addressed anything and you refuse to engage while continuously needing things spelled out for you like a toddler.

 

Alright, look you don't mean to spread misinformation and I have insulted you too many times to have you concede to reason. I am going to leave it at this. I apologize If I have upset you in any way and you are entitled to believe what you want this discussion is over.

 

This content is protected

1:30-1:50

Norton: "My normal weight is about 225-230, but then I drop down to about 206 for each fight".

Carson: "you lose about 20-25 lbs? How do you do that?"

Norton: "Working out, running 6-7 miles a day, and starving (laughs)".

Can someone can explain to me how Norton (who fought in the 70's when lifting weights was frowned upon) did hardcore heavy lifting (building up huge muscles) while also apparently losing 20-25 lbs of weight and maintaining good stamina to fight for 15 rounds? While also apparently starving himself?

Don't large muscles make you gain weight and also require a decent amount of food to maintain?

 

Okay, that clarifies things. Thanks.

We agree that we don't know for sure, since we are not Ken Norton. We can only work with the evidence we have to make an educated guess.

Let me reconstruct Kamikaze's argument as I understand it. He can correct me if I'm wrong. Because aside from anything else, I'm curious how you respond to the argument itself.

As far as I can tell, Kamikaze is working by process of elimination with similar options to yours. Let's look at the options you provided:

1) Norton had knowledge of how to build muscle with weights and use cardio. You claim that this option is chronologically unlikely. Interestingly, Kamikaze disagrees with you. But let's assume you're right. Weights are out.

2) Norton was a PED cheat. You reject this option for lack of evidence. We will come back to it in a bit.

3) Norton was a genetic freak who worked very hard. Kamikaze essentially is asking you, "Worked hard at WHAT?" Not cardio, since that doesn't build much muscle. Not basic bodyweight stuff, because Kamikaze thinks that doesn't build enough muscle even among the genetically gifted. (You seem to agree here as well.) Not gymnastics, according to your response to me above. And not weights, since you rejected that in #1, above.


So essentially, according to Kamikaze's argument, the fact that there is no other explanation for Norton's physique *is itself the evidence* of PED use. You seem to have rejected every alternative way that Norton could have built his muscle. No exotic gymnastics, no consistent weight training. And you agreed that neither basic bodyweight training nor running would build much muscle. PEDs seem like they are the last man standing, unless you reconsider one of the other options or produce a new one.

 

I have said several times Norton definitely lifted. What we were bumping heads over was "how much". Given the attitude of the 70's and the fact Norton was apparently starving himself and cutting around 20-25 lbs before a fight while doing lots of running (6-7 miles a day) I am puzzled how anyone can think he was doing intense hardcore power lifting on a regular basis.

I think maybe he lifted in between fights or when he had down time, and then did smaller weights and lighter reps when he was training for a fight (just to keep/maintain the impressive physique, but not to get huge).

I also never said he couldn't have done peds, just that this requires evidence.

Additionally, I also said that perhaps he knew something other guys in the 70's didn't. I just find this the least likely but possible explanation. I don't think anyone in this era knew how to get jacked with heavy weights while also maintaining good stamina and the evidence is overwhelming.

See the post just above yours, I posted an interview with Ken Norton where he mentions that he cuts 20 or more lbs before a fight while starving himself to get in shape for matches. I'm trying to figure out how Norton stayed so shredded if he was LOSING weight and barely eating while also building big muscles through heavy lifting. That doesn't seem possible even with peds.

 

Ohhh...I think I see what you're saying. When you're saying it's hard to build stamina and bulk up, you're talking about *simultaneous* bulking and cardio.

Your answer is essentially that Norton was (informally) periodizing his training -- bulking up between fights, and doing a bit of maintenance weight training while doing his cardio during actual training camps. Am I getting that right?

 

That's just my speculation, but essentially yes. Even today it's not easy to bulk up and build cardio at the same time if you aren't careful and you don't know what you're doing. This would be 10x harder to do in the 70's when knowledge on the subject was more limited and trainers would yell at you for bulking up.

Big muscles require plenty of food, water, rest, and nutrients to maintain. You also have to do some lifting here and there or they will start to shrink. Not sure how Norton would be able to maintain them while starving himself and doing tons of running to lose 20 lbs over 8 weeks. Unless I'm missing something? Is there any sort of diet or training program that allows for this?

Usually when you bulk up and build large muscle you gain weight, right...?

 

Ah. Good. Glad that I didn't misunderstand you, then.

I'll leave the question of a program capable of doing that to Kamikaze, who, despite being embroiled in a rather heated argument with you right now, is pretty knowledgeable about such things.

As a general matter, some sports programs do have a fat trimming phase that includes some weights and cardio. I think one of the more recent books on judo strength and conditioning has one.

If Norton was essentially doing bodybuilding binges using 70s methods in the off seasons for a decade or so, that might explain some of it. It would require us to interpret his denial of using weights as being limited to what he did in his training camps, though. Which...yeah, that might make some sense.

EDIT: Basically, it would require his cardio phases to remove more fat than muscle, percentage wise. That would create a slow upward spiral of lean mass. But I don't know whether the methods you're describing would be sufficient to do that. It's not a totally crazy theory, though.

 

I don't think boxers had fat trimming phases in the 70's though. That seems to be a relatively new thing. Norton always looked great in every video and photo even as he got older, the fat just burned off easily. I think his training camp was definitely about losing fat and not muscle or he'd be incredibly weak and easily bullied in the ring. But this isn't the case. Foreman and Shavers were the only guys who really bullied him and made him step back, everyone else had to respect Norton's strength and non stop pressure. We can be certain that whatever he was doing, he was maintaining his strength. He even effortlessly lifted Ali once in the corner to show off once.

When he was in training camp, he was isolated from society for 4-8 weeks with just his trainers, sparring partners, cooks, etc. It would have been very difficult for him to sneak some heavy lifting with lots of reps, especially with reporters showing up randomly for high profile fights with guys like Ali and Foreman.

That's why I speculated that he probably did light reps just to maintain the physique and then went back to heavy lifting when there was no fight coming up. And it would have been difficult to do such hardcore heavy reps while starving himself and doing tons of road work in the first place.

 

That's an interesting point about the media scrutiny and being watched in camp.

By fat trimming phases, I didn't mean that Norton was designing it that way intentionally. I was speculating that the normal pattern of his training mimicked the way that modern fat trimming stages might work. If you're bodybuilding 36 weeks out of the year, and have 2 or 3 cardio intensive training camps where you're losing weight, your schedule will resemble a bulk/trim cycle by coincidence.

 

Although again, @Kamikaze could speak better to its feasibility than I could. I'm just speculating myself here.

EDIT: @Glass City Cobra, do you recall which fight/round the incident where he lifted Ali was in?

EDIT 2: Just noticed that your discussion with Kamikaze already concluded above. My mistake there. Sorry, guys.