Well, again, i'm not interested in an era on era debate about opposition. What i'm interested in is a fighter's meeting and performing against the best or second best (Especially) fighter of his era. There will generally be numerous opportunities to do so. With Vitali, it's different because he had his brother, so we look instead against the second and third best (Excepting himself) when one slot is taken by his bro. Vitali's record: 0-2. Utterly pitiful. You want to compare him to Liston. OK. Beat the best contender excepting himself to get his title shot and then beat the best heavy in the world to win the title then thrashed a top contender in his first defence. You want to say that the second is overrated and the first isn't.
I know what overrated means and I know he wasn’t invincible, I’m not sure I’ve ever read anyone on here saying he was.
If some of Muhammad Ali's fights in the 1970's would have gone against him, you could be sure that a rematch would have been in order. In the later stages of his career, Ali did not like to train, unlike his first title reign, (1964-1967), when he appeared to be always in shape. Ali liked the night life and the attention of the media, but in his later stage, money was to be made, so a rematch brings in a bigger revenue. I thought the 1976 title defenses against Jimmy Young and Ken Norton could have gone against Ali.
Liston lost to Ali (took a dive), lost to Leotis Martin, lost to Marty Marshall. He is 0-2 against the one notable name he fought, and 0-2 against two less reputable ones. He is worse in everyway compared to VK. Pummeling Maachen, Patterson doesn't make him a monster.
How can he be "worse in everyway compared to VK" when he's clearly better against the best fighters of his generation? Aided by the fact that he actually managed to fight more than one of them
0-4 is worse than 0-2. Taking a dive after losing the first match really doesn't show Liston's superiority against the best fighter of his generation.
Yeah, but you're just randomly selecting Liston opponents and then adding them together Vital's record versus top two contenders under the condition described: 0-1 Liston's record versus top two: 3-2.
Vitali did not fight his own brother, that is better than losing to Ali twice. Losses matter, McGrain. Had VK lost twice to scrubs like Liston did I am sure you would mention that.
So does the level of competition. I don't get into lengthy discussions about heavyweights these days. Too painful. A forum full of people who think they know better because their hero...well, he's the one. What I said: Vitlai is overrated because what people say bout him - what you say about him - was in no way reflected by the reality of his own real world career. Vitali did not prove himself because his level of opposition was extremely low for a fighter provided with so much fantasy - the operative word - head to head criteria. All of this is absolutely irrefutable.
An apt description of Ali acolytes. The entire forum pretty much runs on fantasy fights. Pardon me if I don't think the crusher of blown up LHWs and small cruisers can be put in the same category as modern HWs. To refute something there first must be an argument. You failed to produce that argument. Non-existent arguments cannot be refuted, so everything you say is irrefutable.
Every champion heavyweight of meaning has his acolytes. Vitlai is overrated because what people say bout him - what you say about him - was in no way reflected by the reality of his own real world career.
On the other hand, Vitali did prove himself (in terms of the ATG company his acolytes want him to keep) very good at beating up low level competition. Like Wilder, i'd be happy to pick him over guys ranked 7,8,9 and 10 very consistently in every era, I'd say that's safe.
Definitely VK. He's one of the very few in history who lost a passing of the torch fight. Wasn't good enough to take it from the aging champ with one foot out the door. On top of that he never beat an array of different styles. Opponents were flat footed , non athletic and washed up / years past prime i.e Peters and Sanders. There's no win on his resume that suggests he should be favorite over all the ATGs and elite level boxers in history yet he'd routinely picked to beat them.
