I agree, it's impossible to separate Frazier's FOTC performance from the released Rage he felt for Ali. Joe had just had eNOUGH of Ali and was willing to die to keep his belt that night. You can see it in his eyes. I notice it doesn't get pointed out much around here how much punishment Joe took to beat Ali. People play up MA's relative inactivity, but he was whacking the crap out of Frazier in those early rounds, and a lot of folks watching at the time thought Smokin' Joe was going to get stopped. I see Joe's doggedness, resiliency as being the factor that just barely tips the scales in his favor against the Mighty Louis.
Frazier was asked once about fighting the Brown bomber and you could tell Louis was a hero of his, he said, " I think I'd have a hard time with Mr' Louis. You could just tell the immense respect Frazier had for him. I'm like a lot of people here I think Louis would drop Joe with a combo and maybe more than once but putting Joe down and keeping him there is another thing. Both sides here have good arguments as to why one or the other would win. I hate to say it but 50/ 50 fight .If it goes the distance I lean towards Louis due to knockdowns
I lean towards Frazier as I think his relentless pressure would see him through. But then again, coming forward against Louis can go wrong all to easily, and if Louis comes out with an explosive start like he often did, Frazier might find himself in trouble since he usually needed a bit of time to set his rhythm. It really could go either way.
could be 50:50 Louis has way better tools and more of them but snorting Joe could bob and weave under and around. add that cross arm defense and Louis could be in for a frustrating night. Smart money would take Louis but I see Frazier unloading at some point and hurting Louis. I like Smoking Joe in a big upset win
It's remarkable how little Frazier's actual win over Ali close to their respective bests counts compared to Peak Ali's numerous fantasy victories over Frazier in the realm of forum imagination.
I like your spirit & posts, but I believe you are off base here. Why? Because Frazier's victory counts for a lot. But it is inarguable that Ali was rusty, & 2 tune up fights after a 3 & a 1/2 year lay off were inadequate for him to recover even the potential he had then. That is, as others note, he was visibly better in 1972-1974. His timing & stamina improved. Now that might well still not be enough to beat prime Frazier. Although it may well be-Frazier took over as Ali faded late. But the kicker is that Ali never could recover either his peak endurance/work rate/dancing ability. His hand speed was close, but his foot speed? Siginficantly less. As you know from comparing his prime '60 weights to FOTC, it was almost the same, with marginally more bodyfat later. Best you can say is that as the announcer noted at the start of the bout, some of his muscle had been "redistributed"-upstairs. So his power & strength was about the same. Ali just was not the same fighter as in the '60's, as Chuvalo & I believe Patterson noted. The difference, let alone how he was a little better after FOTC just because he was in better practice, timing & shape, means that Frazier would be very unlikely to defeat Ali.
Ali at his very best Ali may win a decision against the best Smokin Joe. Maybe. I disagree with Ali fans who proclaim he would dance for 15 rounds on dominating fashion. No way can he take that kind or relentless pressure for 15 rounds without having to fight his way out..
IMO you couldn't out-point FOTC/Bob Foster Frazier, you had to KO him. Louis is probably one of the few guys I would pick to get that job done. Imagine being ringside for this one? Holy ****ing ****, your heart would be in your throat and your **** would be in your pants during the ringwalk. You're picking who you're picking before the fight but you're picking absolutely nobody when you're watching Joe and Joe stalk the ring, waiting fo the trap to be sprung.
Thanks. Yep, only recently signed up. I wasn't necessarily looking for a forum to post to. Quite simply, this site came up often whenever I typed in queries re old timers. It got me scanning through a number of threads and I liked what I read. The knowledge and rationale here is tremendous even IF one doesn't always agree with the ultimate conclusions, I mean, varying opinions are natural and par for the course and provide the all important spark for progressive discussions with great boxing facts and alternative view points revealed along the way. I figured I'd just throw in my 2 cents every now and then and rest assured, my opinions won't always fall into popular line. LOL. As to making a definitive call on a fantasy fight, I guess if one puts in sufficient rationale to float it either way, it's not really that much of a commitment to make an outright choice since we'll simply never know nor be called out for getting it completely wrong, unless, that is, Rod Serling suddenly walks in through a haze of smoke, cigarette in hand and announces in his gravel voice that this fight is ON right now courtesy of The Twilight Zone (I wish!!!) . My greatest conviction is that one or the other scenario would play out, thus the intrigue of this match up. If I had a preferred outcome, it would be to see Louis put on a clinic, upholding boxing at its very best, applying the perfect fusion of power and technique with poor Frazier, all be he great, being the unfortunate support player. Economy class Louis was great but he needs to loosen the purse strings and splurge a bit with Smoking Joe Frazier in front of him. Think Louis of the Max Baer fight and perhaps then some. Actually up on his toes, utilizing excellent and not so often seen foot work. Being trapped in a corner by Baer. (I know, being trapped by Frazier is a different kettle of fish). Anyway, no prob for the Bomber, Joe extricates himself beautifully and belts Maxie with a "see you later" left hook on the way out. One of the most energized, enthusiastic versions I've seen of Louis before settling down to his later methodical, 9-5 dispatches. That's part of the reason I think Louis did better in rematches. He ran the budget a bit too fine the first time but didn't make the same mistake in the second go around. Anyway, very cool site. Keep up the excellent discussions. Thanks.
Frazier will not be able to dodge Louis' quick combos forever, and ultimately he starts get broken down as he won't be able to absorb the same punishment he took from Ali. Louis survives a knockdown or two to force a late stoppage, maybe a corner stoppage as Frazier gets busted up.
Louis had problems with the crouching Godoy in their first fight,He murdered him with uppercuts in the rematch, Frazier would be ducking into that punch all night.
