Classic Forum Chat: Size isn't the only factor.

Joshua already lost to Andy Ruiz by kayo to boot. This isn't even his worst loss.

 

If anything, wouldn't it be a major indictment of our era's quality if a guy who was never really a fighter held the majority of the belts for as long as Joshua?

 

You are the absolute perfect example here. You change your allegiance as it goes to save face in order to continue your current heavies are best 70's heavies can't compete fantasy.

Besides the above today you also posted this - "I wouldn't put too much stock in beating AJ. We will have to wait and see how Usyk does vs other top heavyweights. Joshua already lost to a guy shorter than Usyk with less reach"

You've been HUGE on Joshua for years. He was your one time poster boy. At one stage (just before Ruiz pumped him) you hinted it logical he was the best ever because heavyweights kept getting better. He was your pinup size boy for years as you educated us as to how he would beat the likes of Ali, Holmes, Bowe and totally annihilate spuds like Frazier, Foreman, Liston and Norton. The new guys are too big, too heavy etc etc etc ad infinitum. You even popped up size charts for us.

Lets look at just how big you've been on Joshua in order to put your backtracking into perspective and indeed expose it -

I'm also curious as to why some people seem to feel that a win over someone as tiny as Liston is relevant in todays division. Liston may have been some sort of big bad monster in his day but that wouldn't be the case today.

The two guys who beat Lewis were both 230 pounds+ hardly small men

For 2017 the Ring Magazine listed the top 10 as follows
1.Anthony Joshua 6'6 (250-254) avg 252
2.Deontay Wilder 6'6 (220 3/4-222) avg 221.375
3.Joseph Parker 6'3 (245-245 3/4) avg 245.375
4.Alexander Povetkin 6'1 (223-228) avg 225 1/2
5.Luis Ortiz 6'3 (242 1/4) avg 242 1/4
6.Kubat Pulev 6'3 1/2 (255 3/4) avg 255 3/4
7.Andy Ruiz jr. 6'1 (255 3/4) avg 255 3/4
8.Dillian Whyte 6'3 (247 1/2-260) avg 253.75
9.Dominic Breazeale 6'7 (255 1/4-263) avg 259.125
10.Jarrell Miller 6'3 (283 1/4-298 3/4) avg 291

The overall average weight comes to 250.1875 pounds and the average height comes out to 75.65 inches or 6ft 3.65 inches

No doubt skeptics will say the weight is exaggerated because some of these guys are of shape but even if we deduct 12 pounds we are left with an average of 238.

There may be a point of diminishing returns per size but that seems to have shifted considerably over time.
If not then how do you explain the top heavyweights of today being so much bigger on average than in prior eras? There is nothing to stop men the size of Ali taking the division by storm if they were capable of doing so.

McCall was roughly 20 pounds heavier than Ali and Rahman about 25 pounds heavier. So no not the same size as far as I can see.

If Ali was one of a kind I wouldn't expect him to lose to guys like Frazier and Norton when only in his late 20s and early 30s. Generally people are still in their prime at age 29 and 31 and Frazier and Norton seem like guys who would lose badly by brutal kayo to even faded versions of Lewis, Wlad, Joshua, etc.

Fury and Joshua both beat Wladimir and I'm not at all convinced Ali could beat them

Foreman was poor defensively and used to being the bigger, stronger man. While I disagree with those who think Ali could beat Joshua I find the case for Foreman to be even weaker than the case for Ali. People supporting Ali could at least point to his elusiveness but Foreman doesn't have that to fall back on. Joshua will land on him and Foreman doesn't appear to have ever faced a puncher even approaching Joshua's power.

You guys do realize that the size gap between Joshua and Holmes is equal to or greater than the size gap between Holmes and Charles and Joshua has never struggled with someone as small as Holmes as a pro even once. But that doesn't stop many arguing Holmes could compete today.

What happens when Joshua hits the much smaller Holmes back?

Joshua is probably capable of taking Holmes shots all night if he wants but I doubt the reverse is true

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Tim Witherspoon arguably beat a prime Holmes. This doesn't give me much confidence of his chances against Povetkin let alone a giant like Joshua.

Bowe was wide open and avoided all the divisions big hitters, how does he absorb Joshua's power when someone like Golota hurt and dropped him, this seems like a mismatch in favor of Joshua.
Bowe made his reputation fighting Holyfield, a guy 35 pounds lighter than Joshua who isn't close to being the puncher Joshua is.
Bowe vs Breazeale would be a better matchup

Frazier might make it into the second but his lack of defense would play into Joshua's hands.

Joshua would probably be the heaviest puncher Frazier ever faced and has kayoed a number of guys who were never previously been stopped. Norton didn't make it out of the first round against Shavers or Cooney so I think a first round stoppage is probable.

The only big puncher Frazier faced demolished him and Norton lost to every big puncher he faced. Neither man would appear to possess the defensive skills to avoid Joshua's shots or the durability to absorb his punches without going down. Frazier would be right in front of Joshua, he is not going to be using lateral movement.
This appears to be an absolutely horrific stylistic matchup for both men.

The smallest guy to beat Wladimir Klitschko weighed 225 pounds and the smallest guy to beat Lennox Lewis weighed 231 pounds. Joshua's closest fight thus far was with a guy who weighed 240 pounds. None of these guys ever once lost to someone as small as Sonny Liston. Liston in his prime was never over 220.

It's a bit difficult to gauge the current state of the division since many of the top guys don't face each other. But hopefully we will see Wilder in with some other top guys soon. Joshua seems to be the best at present but perhaps one of the young up and cowers like Hrgovic, Dubois, or Yoka will pose a problem.

If a guy at only 220 was capable of dominating than why hasn't it happened in the last 21+ years? Its been more than 2 decades since anyone under 240 pounds was able to dominate. The only lineal champ under 240 since then was Hasim Rahman at 237 who did not manage a single title defense. It seems like people are unhappy at the thought that 70s heavies couldn't compete today so come up with arguments that fly in the face of actual facts.
The guy who eventually relieved Wladimir Klitschko of his title was 6'8 and 247 with an 85 inch reach. Why couldn't any of the smaller heavies he faced pull it off?

Your correct someone under 200 pounds would probably not be able to compete today but for that matter Foreman and Liston also would be unlikely to make it. Since the mid 90s the best heavyweight in the world has consistently been 240+ and 6'4 or more. This doesn't just apply to Marciano. Foreman sized heavies haven't been able to reach the top either.

How is Bowe with his leaky defense and so so chin going to come out on top with a stronger bigger harder puncher like Joshua? Joshua has faced decent punchers and had his chin tested at a higher level.

 

Usyk/Joshua has convinced me more than ever that Ali could never beat modern superheavyweights.

I'm not yet sure how this could possibly be the case, given on the actual result of the fight. But I'm working on it. I'm sure I'll come up with something eventually.

 

cope

 

Just make it up as you go along and you will fit right in.

In breaking news Usyk is about to be favored over Ali, Holmes, Foreman, Liston, Bowe and many others in order to make that square peg fit into the round hole. He's not just any ex little man buddy, he's tall, AMAZING skills maybe never seen before and was always a 230+ guy stuck in a little body. Barring this Joshua was never any good anyway and in no way a fitting representative of the new wave heavyweight gods.

 

I would have expected most people to jump off the hype train after the Ruiz debacle. Regardless of whether Joshua was overrated or not this is nowhere near as damaging as the Ruiz fight at least in my view.
I'd favor Usyk to beat many past heavyweight champions, that's not the case for Ruiz at all.

Usyk may not be huge even by the standards of earlier eras but he's shown elusiveness and great durability thus far.
I think smaller heavies lacking those qualities are going to have a much harder time. Norton for example was stopped in brutal fashion multiple times by guys who are basically cruiserweights by todays standards. Had he finished his career without ever being kayoed I'd like his chances a lot better same with someone like Frazier.

Usyk's win helps the case of people who think the 1960s version of Ali would do well today but most 70s heavyweights don't have Ali's attributes

 

With regard to Norton (who would not be a happy camper in the modern Age of Punchers, it is true), I would dispute the argument that he *mostly* got stopped by cruisers.

Shavers was a modern heavyweight who was born too early to get his regulation dose of weight training and steroids. Foreman ditto, except that he was 220+ even without them, and that's with dehydration added on. Cooney was Wilder sized; maybe larger. Bobick, Norton stopped.

 

Ha! That reply was on a par with Usyk's performance.

 

High praise!!!!!

 

No, but SUPER Size is...

it's a Completely Different Division and subpar 'overall' division. PERIOD.

the odd Traditional Sized Welterweight can beat the odd Subpar Traditional Sized L-HW,

BUT 9 out of 10 times it's an unequal, unfair step too far, because they are two different animals, Money is ALWAYS on the MUCH Bigger man.

 

This is true. What we have here is an example at the top level for the “always too small” brigade.

 

I remember saying years ago that it would be hugely interesting to see how Usyk, a very skilled fighter the size of Ali and Holmes, did against the modern giants and last night we got to see just that.

No Usyk is neither Ali nor Holmes, but he showed how speed and skill can overcome the size, strength and power of even a very fundamentally sound big man.

 

I think Joshua performed well last night. He adapted and got back into the fight by the mid rounds, but then Usyk closed strong.

Usyk was just phenomenal. This could well be the best performance I've ever seen at HW. In terms of technique and skill it was. And that he managed to keep that movement and activity up for 12 rds was absolutely sensational,