Classic Forum Chat: Size isn't the only factor.

I think these hypothetical match-ups aren't very menaingful personally, but Ali, who was about Usyk's size, is probably the top dog in these fantasy match-ups here, so clearly it's not an unusual position to think that a very skilled and fast fighter that size could beat just about anyone. Even without having a big punch.

I think what you guys really have issue with is that much fewer think that fighters that weren't fast but relied on strength and power would do well when giving up some 50+ lbs and 7-8 inches.

 

In the example I just provided...Braddock is faster than Valuev and a defensive minded spoiler. Valuev was still being treated as George Foreman by posters because of his size advantage. The issue isn't limited to Marciano fights, as much as you seem to want it to be.

So you asked for something specific, you got it, and tried to change it. Valuev being favored over other quick technicans from the 30s un- ironically by an entire stable of like minded posters....well, you are going to see threads like this.

Regarding Ali...he is a mythical figure, and people only favor his young "untouchable prime form" against modern big guys, Uysk was not young or untouchable last night, nor did he win off the back foot, he applied pressure. So there has been an aggressive conception you have to be defensive Ali or even Byrd to overcome Modern Size ...that is not the case, as a tricky but offensive minded strategy won last night.

 

Nail on the head.

we should not have had to wait for an example like this to happen.

Joshua was a good champion for the era he fought in ..but it was annoying that folks wanted to dismiss the chances of a great technical fighter the next size down based on size alone.

Everyone has a physical limit and a technical limit. There has to be a technical boxing limit restricted with size.

And some simply would not explore this even when it presented itself in the past.

It did not apply to the so called modern “athletic big men”. That’s what they said.

well here is the modern example. Yes it does.

Providing a fight is restricted to a technical boxing match, as it was last night, then A technical boxing match will always be a technical boxing match.

 

Usyk was aggressive but also almost untouchable. His head movement and footwork was nearly unbelievable. I think he's one of a kind in that aspect for his size, just like Loma is. 34 or 44 or 54, he's never been better.

And isn't like Usyk was deemed to be out of his depth before the fight either. Plenty of people has him as a favourite, even in General, and I didn't see one that wasn't excited for the fight and thought it would be competitive, no matter who they favoured.

As for Valuev against Braddock... I don't have a horse in that race, but I don't think people here see Braddock as a quick technician in general and that might be why the don't fancy his chances that much.

 

Who "dismissed" Usyk's chances? People were generally excited about this fight just because they didn't dismiss Usyk's chances. Having Joshua as favourite is not the same as dismissing Usyk's chaces, and plenty had Usyk as a favourite for that matter.

It should also be said that Usyk has been solid rather than setting the world on fire since Gassiev and getting older during those years as well of course. Yesterday he rolled back the years and brought the best for the biggest occasion, but not knowing he would beforehand is not in any way the same as dismissing him because of his size.

What this really is about is that you're irked that most don't think that a 5'10 relatively slow fighter could do what the lightning quick and fluid 6'3 Usyk did.

 

I think the punch stats were actually close. Uysk landed the more telling blows but calling him " almost untouchable" is being dishonest.

Uysk has not ever been better at 34 at his career heaviest after a lay off, he looked much quicker and sharper 4-5 years ago. It was a great performance but I feel your exaggerating it to soften Joshua's defeat.

Braddock is a technician and he's quicker than Valuev with a granite chin. It does not require Chris Byrd level elusiveness to overcome Valuev"s "size."

 

You do realize Usik is very big himself, right ?!

 

Don't think I've ever seen him quicker and sharper, but was some years ago since I saw the Gassiev fight (when it happened) so my memory of that isn't all fresh. He, without a single doubt, looked sharper and better yesterday than he has done in any fight since Gassiev and no one dismissed his chances even though his latest efforts have been a bit lacklustre by his standard.

I don't know what the fuss is about really. He was given at least a live chance by everybody and was favourite for a fair few despite not looking his best in his latest fights. He put on a much better performance than he's done of late and won. That's all.

And quick technical fighters Usyk's size do very well in fantasy match-ups here. Yes, Usyk is more aggressive than Ali and Holmes, but there is no one like Usyk to compare to so it's a bit of a moot point. The fact of the matter is that 6'3 speedy, technical fighters are not overlooked in fantasy match-ups against the modern giants on this board.

Nor was Usyk in any way overlooked against AJ, despite not looking his best of late.

And no Braddock is not a technician and not quick. If Byrd is given a better chance against Valuev it's probably because most just think he was more skilled than Braddock, which I fully agree with. It certainly isn't because of Byrds power or height or reach.

I'll leave it at that for now.

 

Nope. This has nothing to do with that at all.

Plenty of people here consider size extremely important in Classic's fantasy fights. Others consider it largely negligible after 190 pounds or so.

 

That's one of way putting it, or you could agree this was the not quickest the rusty 34 year old looked lol. I said "quickest and sharpest.". Nice try. You are a skilled forum debater lol. Maybe let's keep crap real instead of trying to win an imaginary semantics battle?

So what people gave Uysk a chance? This isn't a fantasy fight, you can be held accountable for a bad analysis in real time.

Again..semantics. I SAID he is quicker THAN Valuev. You won't disagree with me so you again, argue not "quick" a subjective word game. If he's quicker than Valuev...it don't matter if he meets your personal definition of "quick."

And no..a 34 year old Uysk is nothing like prime GOAT Muhammad Ali. It's an absurd comparison. I don't care if they both could be called "6'3 speedy technical" fighters. Lol. Good one.

I will Leave it at that....I don't have time for word games. I thought you genuinely wanted to understand the other side, not wank circle debate nonsense. Out.

 

After 190 lbs, eh? That weight would coincide with...? Wait, just give me a moment, it's on the tip of my tongue.

 

Roughly? Dempsey, Jack Sharkey, Charles, Marciano, Patterson, Tunney, Ingo...Half the roster of pre-Ali champions, really.

The position of this contingent seems more or less to be that a separate cruiserweight division is unnecessary, and drains the heavyweight division of talent.

 

To dumb it down what we have is a guy whose in ring weights at cruiser were around 207-208. He moved to heavyweight and basically a year later weighs 215, a year after that 217 1/2 and basically a year after that 221 1/4.

His walk around weight is around 220. The heaviest he had ever weighed was 225 after xmas apparently.

Their target weight for the division initially was 215.

So it is probably fair to put his natural trained down weight without divisional restrictions at about 210 pounds. Fair to say he carries 215-220 odd quite well.

My philosophy for years has been that above 200 pounds weight differences can be overcome. 180-190 not so much. Once you get to that 200 pound mark you have killer punchers like Louis and a guy many consider the hardest hitting heavyweight ever commonly coming in at 205-210. Wilder belted Ortiz at 214 and had Fury going all resurrection on us at 212 1/2.

 

I cannot believe this was just moved from The classic Section when it has been a such heated topic for over a decade. Boo