Classic Forum Chat: Size isn't the only factor.

I know!

I posted it in classic because that's where we have the debates about Dempsey, Marciano, Louis, Liston, Frazier etc vs The top men today.

 

I can…

 

@McGrain - can you weave some magic? This is more worthy of a Classic sticky than being moved elsewhere.

 

Lets see what Mac G can do. It's potentially one of the best threads we will ever have. Some have been waiting over a decade for this and they deserve their place in the more confined debate.

 

Joshua does not have the skills to maul.

It is not something he ever learned.

The number one thing has always been to looks aesthetically pleasing for the media and fans. Joshua was a Matchroom product

 

I wonder who was behind the decision?

 

My point is someone smaller will have a harder time than Usik, trying to land on Joshua

 

He was noticeably better years ago.

Not that this diminishes the win.

If anything it makes it more impressive.

 

I've got a fair idea and am sure no malice or bad intent was meant.

It doesn't matter tho Mc has jumped in to right the ship.

 

Disagree. I don't think there was anything Usyk did this weekend that he couldn't, or wouldn't have done a few years ago. He just hasn't faced the type of opponent where he'd have used that plan. Are you talking about a confidence thing? I don't think Usyk has ever been short of confidence.

Of course each fight leads to a gain in experience, but I doubt it's by significant enough to make up the difference for the speed, fluidity and stamina advantages he held at cruiserweight.

 

This argument was so cherry picked-to refer to any losses or struggles in victory absent context such as time in careers is either intellectually dishonest, or uninformed folly.

Still some of the claims above are just absurd.
Foreman never face a puncher near Joshua? Leave aside late career Foreman & Cooney who likely hit harder, guys like Norton & Frazier were at least near him in punching force-& better in technique.
Lyle pretty clearly hit *harder* than Joshua.

Frazier never faced a puncher like Joshua?
Is it possible to forget he faced Foreman twice?
Bonavena & Chuvalo must have hit at least close to Joshua.

Size does help. But there are many useful attributes.
The question is, whether you think the division has improved, held steady, or gotten worse since say the
1990s...How much of that status is due to increasing size, while overall skills may have gone down?

I think given inactivity & everyone afraid to tarnish their records, & relying on size & rule changes that encourage this...
The game is not as good as the '90s.
Although size has kept it at least fairly close.

 

Yes he certainly slapped down some doozies.

 

Correct overall, except nobody can present any evidence for what proportion of fighters or SHWs use PEDs.
It is often broad speculation & what supports preconceptions or feeds the ego.
Shavers if he was today's average height would be in the 230's anyway, maybe he would have bigger legs.

 

This depends on what you're talking about. Usyk showed smaller world class past heavyweight like Ali, Holyfield, Witherspoon, Liston, Spinks, Tyson Holmes, Young, Norton, Moorer, Quarry etc could obviously contend today. But Usyk was 6'3, 221lb for the Joshua fight and 215-217 in his other heavyweight fights. 6'3, 215-220 is the same size as Ron Lyle... Yeah... He would definitely be a big heavyweight compared to guys in the early 20th century, he would even be on the larger side compared to guys in the 70s

Usyk has about 30 pounds on somebody like Floyd Patterson or Walcott and Usyk is small compared to the big guys so that lets you know the true size difference between SHWs and sub 200 pounders from the past eras. Top 70s heavyweights would totally content today but im still not sold on light heavyweight — small cruiserweight sized guys beating modern SHWs