Classic Forum Chat: Size isn't the only factor.

I have really enjoyed reading through these comments, many of which are full of substance, backed up by insight and knowledge

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I don’t think that will stand up as time goes on. I really don’t. He was never proven to be the best HW in the world. He will go down as an Ernie Shavers type guy. Famous for his punch. That’s it.

Talented, fast tracked heavyweights bypass a lot of the tests that are supposed to see them through. Tyson was somewhat guilty of this, but he never had to quite “learn on the job” as AJ had to. Tyson at least was aware of technical subtleties and had that rich knowledge and respect for boxing history.

people forget this. That was the reason Tyson coming out of jail and making excuse for what he had done was seen as so important. Nobody rated the 1990s until it was over. It was the great decade in hindsight.

He didn’t but the best guy Bowe beat lost his title to a LHW. After that, who was the next best guy Bowe beat? Lewis’s overall record checks out. But he was the “got there in the end” guy. Mostly sharing the spotlight with somebody else.

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Lewis was never 100% dominant over the distance either, unless you include the Tua safety display, which was hardly an aggressive domination.

I think this is 100% accurate. Legit champions but overhyped champions.

I wholeheartedly agree that the main difference between Douglas and Bowe was matchmaking/backing. Been saying this for years. Gradually there has been less resistance to this claim with each passing year.

 

Cooney was unranked and hadn't fought for13 months ,he had had just 3 fights in the last5 years and never beat anyone who wasn't a washed up ancient veteran or a nobody.Tucker was 39- 0-0 and ranked number 3, having beaten Broad ,and then Douglas for the vacant IBF title.

 

weight/size can certainly be an advantage. However,
In certain types of fights weight can be a disadvantage too.

Big Muscular guys won’t have the same lung capacity later in the fight when their big arms start getting heavy.

In most cases, two big guys against each other fighting at the same tempo you won’t see that. Or they get the job done much earlier in the fight before that becomes an issue.

perhaps too, more readily available information in science, nutrition and training can mask this. But it can happen in the right rare fight and circumstances.

The biggest disadvantage of all is not being able to fight your fight.

In most cases a fighter fighting the wrong fight will lose. It’s not always size.

 

By today’s standard, how many fights in 3 years had Vitali had going in against Peter? Or wins of value Tyson Fury had before taking on Wilder? Vitali challenging Joshua? The list goes on and on.

 

We aren't discussing either Vitali or Fury,both of whom have resumes vastly superior to Cooney's.

 

It's not always size,but all things being equal I would prefer the physical advantages if it were me in the ring I don't see that as being arguable.

 

While its clear that size isn't the only factor in determining matchups I don't see how we can be confident how someone like Sonny Liston would do today given he spent his career fighting guys under 210 and never faced any top 10 opponents over 220. Usyk having success doesn't prove Liston could do the same.

What reason is there to think Listons power would translate to today or that his chin would hold up?

 

True, but Cooney was still the favorite. And who had Tucker beaten at that point?

 

Completely and utterly disagree.

The "main difference" between Bowe and Douglas is far more aligned to motivation than matchmaking and backing.

Douglas had his chance against Tucker but lacked the drive as much as anything that day. Next up would have been Tyson. He had his day in the sun against Tyson later at a time when he was at his most motivated ever then capitulated next fight when the world was potentially at his feet.

Bowe suffered similar but at least put it together long enough to have a bit of a run. Both cases are well documented.

 

The Tucker fight was definitely a blip for Douglas…and it might have been for Bowe too.

Buster lacked motivation for sure..but his career wasn’t exactly mapped out for him like Bowes was. The ex Olympian was given the buildup wasn’t he? It’s kinda easier to stay motivated in that situation is t it?

Still, Douglas had already beaten Cobb and Greg Page by the Tucker fight. Not 100% sure Bowe could have at a similar stage.

Bowe was the finished article by the time he went in with Evander. I think Coetzer was about his only half decent scalp until then. He had made hard work of Tubbs. So Where was his Tony Tucker fight?

maybe Bowe would have to fight either Ruddock or Lewis before he fought Holyfield?

Or maybe Tubbs was Bowes Tucker fight?

Overall there’s nothing much between Douglas and Bowe.

 

Cooney was favourite because of the size disparity and because Spiks had only beaten a slowed Holmes and a journeyman in Tangstad Tucker had beaten Broad and then Douglas for the vacant IBF title and was unbeaten in35 fights.

 

How many top opponents over 220lbs did Ali face? Is there reason to think he would do well today or not?

 

Past a certain weight punching power can be even. That point to me is the 180 mark. Now always you should fight to your size and skill set. If short get shorter if tall taller heavy use that to lean etc. I would say overall you’re right it’s easier for a big man to master a big man style then it is for a little man to master that art. But once the little man masters boxing it’s an even fight…just harder to get there for the small man need more skill (or different ones then normally fought).

 

Tucker hadn't beaten Douglas when Spinks signed with Cooney (unless they signed less than 15 days before the fight) . So Broad was the biggest name on his resume.

And Spinks beat a slowed Holmes, but it was hardly "only".

I agree champions should face their mandatories, but Tucker is bigged up as a contender in hindsight because he gave peak Tyson a good fight with a busted hand. Spinks chose Cooney because he was 10 times the money Tucker was, literally I believe, not because Tucker was that dauting.

 

I would highly doubt it. Bowe had consistent intestinal fortitude and no small amount of ability. He's a better fighter than Tucker.

Douglas had the "matchmaking/backing" to get an important fight like Tucker that would have opened doors for him. He just couldn't take it.

So how did hundreds, virtually thousands of boxers in the last 70-80 years stay motivated to train and perform at a high level without the Olympics and the adjacent build up?

How much more "mapping" did he need? As you say below he'd beaten Page and Cobb already and he was at a good stage to fight a guy like Tucker, and for a title to boot. Tucker hadn't done much more than Douglas had at that point despite the odds he just lacked those couple of losses.

Cobb and Page were both entering low career stages and i have little doubt Bowe at the same career stage would have rolled both. He was beating Thomas, Cooper and Biggs at that stage.

Yes Futch had Bowe primed.

Tony tucker was for a title chok so lets not pretend it was a fight to earn the way to one. Douglas had bugger all roadblocks before this fight just like Bowe didn't have a huge amount either.

Again, your argument is that Douglas lacked the matchmaking/backing comparative to Bowe yet Douglas had two title shots in under 3 years and didn't need to move mountains to get them. That's your argument blown away right there.

Where was Douglas' Ruddock or Lewis? He fought what, a freshly beaten Page and a tired Cobb. Lets not pretend Bowe was given a gift shot and Douglas wasn't given two. You're trying to make out Douglas had to move mountains to get a shot and Bowe didn't and it just doesn't stand up at all. Not even a little.

Was Tubbs a title fight? Get with the program dude.

In what way. As I've pointed out above both had their opportunities, Douglas two of them. Bowe was a more consistent fighter with a better overall record. Douglas truly rose for one fight. Bowe beat Holyfield impressively over a series while Holyfield brushed Douglas away as if he were nothing. If Douglas had a lot more determination and fortitude on a consistent basis he could have had a helluva lot better career but he just didn't. Having said that he has perhaps the most famous victory in the history of boxing, certainly in some ways. He just couldn't put it together much of the time.