Sonny Liston vs Mike Tyson Overall

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Dance84, Feb 12, 2020.



who would win

  1. Liston By Knockout

  2. Liston By Decision

  3. Tyson By Knockout

  4. Tyson By Decision

  5. Draw

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Sangria

    Sangria You bleed like Mylee Full Member

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    Question: name all the ATG's that Mike Tyson beats. In your opinion.
     
  2. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    All pre-Joe Louis champs, including Johnson and Dempsey. Patterson. Quite possibly Marciano. Post Zaire-Ali. Norton. Quite possibly prime Holyfield.

    Pre-Steward Lewis. Post-1993 Bowe. Any champ of this century, period.
     
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  3. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Marciano is not a quite possibly. He would be butchered in short order. Horrific styles match-up. Probably the worst ever

    . I agree with the rest of your list, but would also include Johannson, among others.
     
  4. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I forgot Johansson, and I am on my way to believing Marciano would have been beaten.
     
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  5. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Boxing Junkie Full Member

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  6. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Oh **** sorry, I thought we were talking about champions Mike would’ve beaten not necessarily ATGs. Therefor your exclusion of him was correct. My apologies
     
  7. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I did honestly forget about him anyway, my good friend ;) lol
     
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  8. Journeyman92

    Journeyman92 I’m become seeker of milk Full Member

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    Mike Tyson is a much better fighter in nearly every aspect.
     
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  9. GOAT Primo Carnera

    GOAT Primo Carnera Member of the PC Fan Club Full Member

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    How would you know?
    When exactly did Liston meet 6'2" - 6'5" 218-230lb top contenders/champions ?
     
  10. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    This is a really good point.

    I'm basing my views both on Liston's power as well as his relative flexibility as a fighter. He was able to change his style just enough to accomodate the other fighter's, something that as you know can be invaluable to a boxer. To me he was nearly as good a fighter (in a few ways better) than prime Tyson, who kicked the crap out of all of them.
     
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  11. GOAT Primo Carnera

    GOAT Primo Carnera Member of the PC Fan Club Full Member

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    Whenever any H2H Liston topic comes up, it basically stops with the same guess: What about Liston fighting fellows his own weight? Along with it, we can throw the question about his chin against mentioned into the room too. What about his power? Benefit of the doubt as well?

    As far as i know, as you already said, the only save bet benefit Liston had over MT is reach & the versatility of his style (puncher or boxer type, which is very rare).

    Reach & Jab: Liston
    Boxing: Liston
    Height: Liston
    Defense: Tyson
    Size (Weight): Slight edge Tyson
    Speed: Tyson
    Power: Tyson (opponents weightclass questionmark Liston)
    Chin: Tyson (opponents weightclass questionmark Liston)

    On a ground like that, Tyson beat taller & rangier boxers with a reach adv. on daily basis.

    Liston on the other hand, never met a fighter who was heavier, quicker, more powerful and more sturdy chin than him. Not sure if he ever met a truly bigger & quicker opponent ever in his career (maybe Williams was bigger).

    I see no reason to pick Liston here.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2021
  12. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Great post, but you left out intimidation factor. On more occasions that not, Tyson had troubles with people who were completely unafraid of him (most especially those who were intimidating back at him). Liston was perhaps the greatest intimidator in heavyweight history.
     
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  13. Shahpoor Saiq

    Shahpoor Saiq Member Full Member

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    Tyson does not need to intimidate Liston. Just look at the Ruddock fights for example.
     
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  14. moneytheman12

    moneytheman12 Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    I see no reason ether way to slow and easy to read
    its mutiple people here ether trolling or just never seen mike or son

    mike fought mutiple people who had fast jabs but was fast and they had trouble landing mike even fought slow hard jabbers and beat them easy

    why would a slow easy to read son hit mike much and beat him it doesn't make sense its obvious he would lose he would be countered easy and ko fast son didnt have good defense ether

    the people who beat mike used a jab whole circling around and had a decent speed behind it son never fought that way and his speed was slow he would be right there in front of mike he loses
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2021
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  15. Talbot

    Talbot Necromancer Full Member

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    I love this whole thread. Not an ounce of regret using Necromancy here. With a take I think a lot of people really miss. Firstly, the previous posts I am taking as being given in good faith. Even the points that are irrelevant to a simulation, a bar room chat, or dinner talks. And because this seems like a horrible conversation to jump into the middle of.... HERE I GO!

    WILDER DOESN'T MATTER
    I will be very brutally honest up front on my opinion of "Who Beats Who?" of all the Lineal HW Champs.
    Whats that? "But what about....?" Was he a Lineal Champ? No? Then he doesn't matter to me, and never will. Lots of posters outright state that "Styles make fights", and personally this is the beginning and end of how I evaluate each and every Lineal matchup.

    BORN WHOLE
    In a vacuum.... using 'Born Whole' clones of each Lineal HW Champ at their physical prime, and only containing those "moments of perfection" throughout their careers (not entire fights, or even entire combos. Just singular moments of perfection displayed and spliced together into one skillset) as being their only available performance standard... I would be more likely to accept that Mike Tyson's Born Whole Clones win every fight, than any other Lineal HW. A few fighters would have a "puncher's chance" based solely on their available power. Of those few who could one-touch Tyson, Marciano is excluded because even in the accumulation of perfection, he was very slow to start fights. Foreman's and Liston's Born Whole Clones would have the same punchers chance of catching Tyson when he makes his initial breach to infighting, however many times that chance is given to them in 4 rounds.

    Four Rounds? Swarms? Of Bugs?
    Workrate. From Sullivan to Fury, of all the available footage humanity has, the difference in workrate is startling in the first 4 rounds. How many of the LHWC (just going to abrv from now on:) styles of fighting are available that would afford them a more likely than not possibility of surviving the first 4 rounds? It is an unfortunate calculation of time in ANY of the LHWC matchups, modern styles, training, preparation, workrate exclude a LOT of that line from any sort of victory. I love Dempsey, I love Jack Johnson for what they did for the sport. But I acknowledge that the accumulation of their perfection is not enough to defeat progress. Mike Tyson had a workrate in those first 4 rounds, matched with his "Swarming" style of punches in his peek-a-boo defensive technique, that is the standard that every LHWC would need to survive.

    What is a Born Whole Clone? It would be YOU, a clone of you at your physical peak (that being the peak of your own body during your real life, not what your body WAS capable of if we all weren't lazy:), with nothing but your skills and talent to let it perform the function being tested. No emotions, no culture, no thoughts outside of the task at hand. Historical styles were far too slow. Of the modern fighters, Holyfield is the only one who would come close to being comparable to Tyson's workrate. And outside of a vacuum I am pretty disgusted by how Holyfield behaved during that fight... it was unnceccessary! Tyson hadn't been the same fighter since SPINKS! He was garbage after Spinks, when Don King sunk his fangs into Mike and !ruined! what should have been a greater champion! Don Kings Legacy in this sport should be nothing but the insidious fetid rot he deserves! What a scumbag! I would not agree that Holyfield's born whole clone is capable of defeating every other fighter on the LWHC list.

    WHY DID YOU SAY "MORE LIKELY TO ACCEPT MIKE TYSON'S BORN WHOLE CLONES WIN?"
    Because outside of a vacuum, outside of any impossible simulation that we could dream up..... life sucks, and then you die.

    You have all really missed the comparison that I think Humanity would best learn from. The Story of Sonny Liston? Of Mike Tyson? They are tragic love stories, and I do not feel ashamed to admit that it makes me sad that our descendants will never have gotten the very best of what We(Humanity) could have been. And if Hollywood ever had the guts to show us how disgusting we can be to each other through the lens of these two lives, I have no problem saying that I would probably cry despite not feeling catharsis.

    I think Sonny Liston died without ever having felt genuine love from anyone but his wife. If even her.

    Sonny Liston never had a physical prime in fighting... his age is an estimate, by the time he actually wins his belt after hounding Patterson? I think most fighters would have retired by then. His life was horrific and corrupted and I would accept no gift or sum to relive his life. Sonny's tragic love story isn't with his wife though. It is with Us, the Public. He wanted nothing more than to be loved by the Public in a way that he had never experienced before. We rejected him. The Mob? The mean mug? The fighting style? Did the reason we rejected him matter to Liston? He did everything he could in pursuit of our love, from television appearances, interviews with his wife, to public events. None of it mattered to us.

    It was a horrific life ending with a miserable death. And I truly think there was not a single moment of existence where someone else had shown him genuine love.
    But hey.... at least Tyson found his love... right?

    Yes. Mike Tyson found the love he wasn't even looking for in Cus D'Amato. He found a father figure, and felt that love from Cus, allowing him to realize a dream of becoming the Champ. And the possibility of becoming the "most dangerous man on the planet." He tossed away his own childhood, and grew without ever knowing his mother as a person. But boxing found Mike in juvy, and boxing sent him to Cus. I am thankful that We got to see the results of Mike finding the love of a father with Cus. And I am sure that love lasted him until the last link connecting him to Cus was severed..... by DON F'N KING! When Rooney was axed.

    Mike Tyson was two fighters. You can see it clearly in the tapes. From workrate to combos to defending. There is everything we seen right to the 1 minute mark of the Spinks fight(uppercut to the body first, then short right?), and the simulacrum that fought Bruno a year later. That we watched destroy itself time and time again. Destroy itself for the benefit of one poofy haired snake in a suit.


    I know. I acknowledge I am putting a LOT of weight on the first 4 rounds, and the gulf of workrate compared between each Born Whole Clone of the Lineal Heavyweight Champs. I just don't see anything in the rest of the list that allows for a likely probability of surviving those first 4 rounds of Tyson's perfect skillset. Beyond the 4th round? Those comparisons get a LOT closer, and the entire list becomes a bloodbath because of people like Marciano, Lewis, Klitschko, and every one of those champs who trained for 15 rounds, and not the tame 12 we are forced to watch.

    Can everyone who has ever posted here come to the agreement that the story of these two lives are indeed tragic love stories? Maybe. But it sure is a lot sadder than thinking about how one of these two KO the other, because we ALL know this isnt going 12.