Was John L Sullivan the best pugilist of his time ?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by mr. magoo, Oct 6, 2021.



  1. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    This was partially inspired by a thread recently posted by cross_trainer. When I say pugilist I don’t just mean boxing. Is it possible that there were wrestlers, martial artists or other sorts of 19th century fighters who may have beaten him in a fight ?
     
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  2. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    Depends what you mean by "fight."

    Muldoon in real life beat him in a mixed boxer vs wrestler match, IIRC, although Sullivan probably bulldozes Muldoon under London Prize Ring Rules.

    The Lancashire proto-catch wrestlers might have had somebody who could have beaten him -- Acton, I think? -- although they might not have had the size. The other types of wrestlers would probably beat Sullivan at grappling (William Miller, old Dinnie, etc.), but I dunno what they'd do once they got him down.

    Kano's Judo didn't come until close to the end of Sullivan's tenure, but there might have been trad jujitsu guys who were big and good enough. Sumo folks probably get beaten up like Yarbrough and Teila Tuli did in the 1990s.

    The Thais were probably too small, and Muay Thai wasn't really organized or sportified even compared to LPR boxing. Dunno about the Okinawans. China might have somebody somewhere running around doing lei tai challenge matches who could do it, but I kind of doubt it.

    The French might've had some savateurs with wrestling experience who could do it, although I wouldn't count on that either way.

    Judging from Gama's performance later in the century, India probably has some grapplers who could throw Sullivan and then lie on top of him, doing nothing interesting.

    The later you go, though, the more guys would definitely beat John L. Sullivan in a no holds barred fight. Combat sports developed and centralized massively by about 1900, in part thanks to Sullivan's own influence.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2021
  3. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    But if you're asking whether anybody could have beaten Sullivan by trading punches? Probably not, no. Not until later in his career.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2021
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  4. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    Good post. Hey do you know anything about how medieval knights and other soldiers of that era trained? Did they learn hand to hand combat ?
     
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  5. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    I suspect that the best wrestlers of the day, could have taken him to the ground, and forced him to submit.
     
  6. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    Thanks. Yes, Medieval knights did train hand to hand combat. (Although you're talking about a very long and diverse period of time.) We have their manuals. It's lots of grappling, mostly standing up trying to take the other guy down (or breaking a limb), and often involving weapons. Some punches and kicks, but nothing elaborate, at least from what little I remember years ago.

    It looks a bit like traditional jiujitsu, actually, which is unsurprising considering that it was developed for somewhat similar types of people.
     
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  7. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    I am a HEMA fighter, so I get to try this on a practical level.

    Manuals from the era show that they used a lot of jujitsu style moves if they lost hold of their weapon.

    The armored gauntlet was good for striking, but the best way to strike with it, is to back hand your opponent.
     
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  8. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    This makes sense of a lot, actually.

    (Not a criticism or a snide backhand here; it just fits perfectly.)
     
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  9. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    I’d like to hear more about this.
     
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  10. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    Cool stuff
     
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  11. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    I saw a video on YouTube a while ago that talked about possible training regimens they used though I don’t know how factual it was. It suggested things like taking a big stone and throwing it as far as you could, wedging yourself between two close walls or trees and climbing yourself up, climbing ropes, horse mounting tricks, etc.
     
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  12. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me Full Member

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    A fight of what sort? Do you mean, had John picked the wrong bar to walk into, may there have been a sonofabitch or two he in fact could not have licked? Or do you mean someone from another discipline (a catch-as-can grappler, a karateka from the Orient, what have you) been able to meet and best him under his own ruleset and on his own "turf" in a prizering?
     
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  13. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    Bit sad, really, that it may well be that there was never a point in history where the heavyweight boxing champion was the actual Baddest Man on the Planet.

    Jeffries or Johnson, there might be a tiny outside chance. Maybe somebody pre-Sullivan when wrestling was bad and groundfighting undeveloped.

    On the bright side, there probably WAS a time -- in fact, a very long time -- when the heavyweight champ was the world's best striker.
     
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  14. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    There are many different kinds of HEMA, reflecting combat styles from different periods of history, but I personally specialize in medieval warfare. The aim is to recreate medieval combat as closely as we can, though of course you can't kill people, so blunted weapons are used. We don't pull our blows however, and you sometimes get pretty beaten up. Pretty much any move is allowed, provided the other guys is wearing protective gear. I have participated in scenarios ranging from one on one fights, to melees with a dozen people on each side. As a sport we have had to reinvent the wheel on a lot of things.
     
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  15. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    "My name is Kwai Chang Caine, and I have traveled to this bar from China to accept your traditional challenge."
     
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