Has The Now Mythical Skillset Of The Gypsy King Been Vastly Overstated & Blown Out Of Proportion?

Surrix · Oct 10, 2021

CST80 said: ↑

Wlad was NOT a front foot heavy aggressive fighter, he's been a backfoot counter puncher against almost everyone he's fought since he hooked up with Steward, one of the few exceptions was Pulev, because I guess he thought he could have his way with Pulev, who's a featherfist.
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Naw. Vs Pulev: A. It was 33 y.o in prime shape Pulev, then undefeated version. Wlad was not enough " hungry " already rich person and over the hill, yeah.
It wasn't 39 y.o uncle Pulev version from fight vs A.J.
B. Pulev did not had lesser weight than Wlad, actually a bit more than Wlad, he just was stocky muscular type boxer not some fatty pudding.
C. Pulev troubled uncle Wlad enough and he get angry. I think he knew that he will not outmuscle prime Pulev and opted to let hands go.

With Pulev looks that he was inferior vs Wlad in all areas besides jab, youth and I suspect in this night also in S/C, fitness level.
Wlad get angry and let hands go.

fistsof steel · Oct 10, 2021

Fury is the best of a very average lot.....Most of them expect Usyk are packing Glass.!!!

CST80 · Oct 10, 2021

Surrix said: ↑

With Pulev looks that he was inferior vs Wlad in all areas besides jab, youth and I suspect in this night also in S/C, fitness level.
Wlad get angry and let hands go.
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Yeah I know, I've covered that elsewhere on the site, I didn't feel like going into their history, because the article is about Fury's skillset.

vast · Oct 10, 2021

Fury is the most athletic boxer of his size perhaps of all time. That is the baseline to work off of in evaluating him. There are many more athletic and talened HW boxers than Fury, but it is being 6'9" that makes him a formitable foe, and that which separates him from others.

Boxed Ears · Oct 11, 2021

mark ant said: ↑

Broner was awful, all he had was a left hook.
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Oh, you might wanna Google this one also, it's something I found, sourced and everything on there, it's a list of everyone who beat a prime 130 Broner:

And here's one with all his draws there:

.

HellSpawn86 · Oct 11, 2021

I don’t think his skill set are overrated. I am starting to come to the conclusion that world champion boxers are underrated. You don’t get to the top if you aren’t special. Beyond that there are no perfect boxers who can do everything and win perfect rounds every time. Each boxer has strengths and weaknesses and it’s their job to maximize on those strengths and minimize those weaknesses. Fury is a big man with an ugly herky jerky style, but he makes it work for him.

African Cobra · Oct 11, 2021

CST80 said: ↑

Alright, I'm certainly going to end up pissing countless people off with this thread, but whatever... it won't be the first time. But what I'm going to say, has really needed to be said for quite some time. But I've said nothing, and the Cult Of The Gypsy King has grown almost as uncontrollably as the Cults Of The Bronze Dosser and The Golden Bodybuilder. Maybe it needs a little water poured onto it. Sorry if I'm rambling, I'm doing this extemporaneously. So here goes....

So is Fury really this master boxer? Or is it all a smoke and mirrors like illusion?

I'll get to his big wins later, since they're 2 of only about 3 actual highlights in one of the P4P worst resumes of any active P4P ranked top fighter.

His first match against Chisora, Chisora rocked him a few times, and it was basically an ugly brawl and a scrappy slug fest at times, but... Tyson hadn't evolved yet and they were both undefeated and pretty green, pretty good win overall regardless. The rematch, clearly Tyson was more of the finished product and was able to use his ability to control range to greater effect this time. That carried over to the Christian Hammer match, also a quality win. But at the end of the day, if you can't beat Chisora or Hammer, who are high level gatekeepers, then you're not even close to being elite. So full credit to Tyson Fury for those good wins, but let's be honest, neither of them are that hard to outbox.

Now, on to the fun part.

Quite frankly, there's 2 massive elephants in the room here that no one really wants to talk about, and I'm not talking about Fury directly. The first one is, while it's something that should have been considered by most, including myself beforehand. Wlad was NOT a front foot heavy aggressive fighter, he's been a backfoot counter puncher against almost everyone he's fought since he hooked up with Steward, one of the few exceptions was Pulev, because I guess he thought he could have his way with Pulev, who's a featherfist. But with Fury, not only did he not want to risk it, when he did, Fury made him pay, so risk averse Wlad just assumed Fury would gas out and he could take him late, but PED'd up Fury conveniently never gassed until the last two or three rounds, but by then it was too late. Styles make fights, Fury's style especially this ultra defensive version, was always a nightmare for Wlad in particular. So that one is easy to explain away. Was it impressive? Sure, but he also fought Wlad like a total coward, terrified to take even the slightest of risks. Quite frankly, they both fought like total pussies. But that's what happens when you have two guys who are counter punchers by nature who don't like getting hit in the ring against one another.

Now, onto the second.... for years, all we've heard is Wilder is a TERRIBLE BOXER!!! Wilder is a TERRIBLE BOXER!!! Wilder is a TERRIBLE BOXER!!! Wilder is a TERRIBLE BOXER!!! And there's a reason for that.... HE IS. Most assumed that Wilder would beat Fury, because well... somehow he can always find a way to land that straight right of his. Well, he still did, but Fury thankfully has solid powers of recovery. But what happened after that? They went to war, he landed a few bombs on Wilder, Wilder was clearly affected by them, so just like Maravilla Martinez, in the later rounds against Williams, when he saw that adjustment with his looping overhand left was having an effect on him, he merely started the rematch right where he left off in the 12th, and presto, it worked like a charm. That's basically what Fury did in the rematch. He also benefited from a clear as day punch to the back of the ear, which literally caused blood to start gushing out of Wilder's ear. Obviously his equilibrium was off, so he couldn't sit down on his shots very well. So that means he had a sitting duck, with no balance, who couldn't generate any real power..... standing in front of him, and it still took 5 more rounds of teeing off on him to get the ref to stop it. Now mull this over, aside from getting KO'd twice, because he was a septuagenarian on blood pressure medicine... Who won rounds more decisively off of a non injured non impaired Wilder? Ortiz or Fury? Its a close call isn't it? I lean King Kong Ortiz. And ultimately, is schooling the P4P most unskilled Heavyweight boxer possibly ever... really something to brag about? Especially when you end up getting dropped twice in the process?

What about his struggles with Otto Wallin? Where did all of those skills go? He had a big slow southpaw oaf walking him down in a rudimentary fashion, occasionally winging in a looping over hand left, and that was more than enough to completely throw Tyson off his rhythm for the first six rounds of the fight. It wasn't until Otto started gassing that Tyson Fury finally found his rhythm. Then he reverted back to the scrapper that fought Chisora the first time around. He just bullied him around the ring and landed slapping body shots and wild looping shots up top, basically having to revert using his size to his advantage, because on that night his skills were simply not paying the bills. Sure he ran around the ring flicking out a jab a lot, but none of it was quite enough to fully negate Otto's forward march, nor was it enough to convincingly win Tyson very many of the early rounds. Otto was aided immeasurably by the massive cut he opened up on his eyebrow, but still... he opened up a cut with a punch. The point is, the mythical skill set of the Gypsy King was nowhere to be seen, he had to rely on pure raw physicality to bail him out.

Granted, Fury has always had issues with southpaws, he was a sitting duck for that looping left from Otto, and he's about as fast on his feet as Old Man Ortiz, yet he was backing him up throughout. He also got rocked to his core by glass jawed Abell at least twice before he stopped him, alongside all of the smaller guys that have dropped him or hurt him like Cunningham, McDermott, Pajkic and Chisora, the first three are 6'3, like Usyk, Chisora is 6'2. So who's to say if you add in Usyk's incredible stamina, that he won't be very easy to catch and wail on like Otto was in the second half of their fight. Who's to say that Usyk couldn't easily duck under his looping slappy sloppy hooks all night, then get in his grill and fat belly and work Fury's blobby ass over like a speedbag. Then pivoting out of the side door, turning him and keeping him discombobulated throughout. Yes Fury is fast for a big man, but this is also mainly against stationary targets, who are neither fast nor mobile. Remember in the Wilder rematch, from the fourth round on, Fury's shots were getting increasingly wild, inaccurate and slow to the point where Wilder was actually starting to roll with a lot of them. So if Tyson Fury tries that approach, Usyk might only have to play stay away for three or four rounds, then Fury will have considerably less in the tank, and could turn into a sitting duck.

My point is, Usyk vs. Fury is not anywhere close to a foregone conclusion. Fury's two biggest wins are a bit of an illusion which has given way to fanboy delusion. Both of which have ended up flattering him greatly, causing many fans to overrate him brutally. Is he good? Of course he is. But did he benefit greatly from the stylistically favorable match against Klitschko? Yes. Did he benefit greatly from Wilder having next to zero boxing IQ? Yes. Is his skill set next level? No. He uses his hulking size, incredible height and reach to his advantage to great effect, coupled with having more mobility and fluidity than your average behemoth, that is all. How much good would all of that do him if he was only 6'2? Would he even rate as a 5'8 welterweight? Probably not. His skill set has been vastly overrated, but he is a big SOB who uses being a big SOB to his advantage marvelously, and he has a lot of grit and will power. Eventually though, someone with a higher ring IQ will come along and negate all of those advantages with relative ease. And how much can that chin really take? Especially if it gets hit clean repeatedly.

At the very least, mull what I've said over.
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Very good post CST80 which is worthy of consideration and has got my juices flowing. I am busy in the middle of things now so will send a detailed analysis later. Needless to while I agree with some points made there are others I don’t agree with but I will get back to you to do do justice to this quality post.

mark ant · Oct 11, 2021

Boxed Ears said: ↑

Seriously, anyone who knows anything about boxing can watch these two and know that p4p Broner is better. This is a four-weight world champion. Guys he beat were better than Fury. Look at Malignaggi. If you shrunk Fury down to Malignaggi's size, he would not be that good. We all know that. Deep down.
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Malinaggi had no punch he was awful.

mark ant · Oct 11, 2021

Boxed Ears said: ↑

Dreams are worth more than money. And you can't buy your way outta this awful comment.
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Broner was useless, completely overrated, the shoulder roll was garbage.

mark ant · Oct 11, 2021

Boxed Ears said: ↑

Let me ask you this: Why ain't Pacquiao ever give Broner a rematch but he did it so many times for Marquez and for Bradley...? Maybe your boy didn't wanna get stretched again...?
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Because nobody wanted to se it, Manny completely out-classed Broner who did nothing, he just ran away, hardly landing any punches, are you seriously comparing Broner with Manny?

Nick UK · Oct 11, 2021

CST80 said: ↑

Alright, I'm certainly going to end up pissing countless people off with this thread, but whatever... it won't be the first time. But what I'm going to say, has really needed to be said for quite some time. But I've said nothing, and the Cult Of The Gypsy King has grown almost as uncontrollably as the Cults Of The Bronze Dosser and The Golden Bodybuilder. Maybe it needs a little water poured onto it. Sorry if I'm rambling, I'm doing this extemporaneously. So here goes....

So is Fury really this master boxer? Or is it all a smoke and mirrors like illusion?

I'll get to his big wins later, since they're 2 of only about 3 actual highlights in one of the P4P worst resumes of any active P4P ranked top fighter.

His first match against Chisora, Chisora rocked him a few times, and it was basically an ugly brawl and a scrappy slug fest at times, but... Tyson hadn't evolved yet and they were both undefeated and pretty green, pretty good win overall regardless. The rematch, clearly Tyson was more of the finished product and was able to use his ability to control range to greater effect this time. That carried over to the Christian Hammer match, also a quality win. But at the end of the day, if you can't beat Chisora or Hammer, who are high level gatekeepers, then you're not even close to being elite. So full credit to Tyson Fury for those good wins, but let's be honest, neither of them are that hard to outbox.

Now, on to the fun part.

Quite frankly, there's 2 massive elephants in the room here that no one really wants to talk about, and I'm not talking about Fury directly. The first one is, while it's something that should have been considered by most, including myself beforehand. Wlad was NOT a front foot heavy aggressive fighter, he's been a backfoot counter puncher against almost everyone he's fought since he hooked up with Steward, one of the few exceptions was Pulev, because I guess he thought he could have his way with Pulev, who's a featherfist. But with Fury, not only did he not want to risk it, when he did, Fury made him pay, so risk averse Wlad just assumed Fury would gas out and he could take him late, but PED'd up Fury conveniently never gassed until the last two or three rounds, but by then it was too late. Styles make fights, Fury's style especially this ultra defensive version, was always a nightmare for Wlad in particular. So that one is easy to explain away. Was it impressive? Sure, but he also fought Wlad like a total coward, terrified to take even the slightest of risks. Quite frankly, they both fought like total pussies. But that's what happens when you have two guys who are counter punchers by nature who don't like getting hit in the ring against one another.

Now, onto the second.... for years, all we've heard is Wilder is a TERRIBLE BOXER!!! Wilder is a TERRIBLE BOXER!!! Wilder is a TERRIBLE BOXER!!! Wilder is a TERRIBLE BOXER!!! And there's a reason for that.... HE IS. Most assumed that Wilder would beat Fury, because well... somehow he can always find a way to land that straight right of his. Well, he still did, but Fury thankfully has solid powers of recovery. But what happened after that? They went to war, he landed a few bombs on Wilder, Wilder was clearly affected by them, so just like Maravilla Martinez, in the later rounds against Williams, when he saw that adjustment with his looping overhand left was having an effect on him, he merely started the rematch right where he left off in the 12th, and presto, it worked like a charm. That's basically what Fury did in the rematch. He also benefited from a clear as day punch to the back of the ear, which literally caused blood to start gushing out of Wilder's ear. Obviously his equilibrium was off, so he couldn't sit down on his shots very well. So that means he had a sitting duck, with no balance, who couldn't generate any real power..... standing in front of him, and it still took 5 more rounds of teeing off on him to get the ref to stop it. Now mull this over, aside from getting KO'd twice, because he was a septuagenarian on blood pressure medicine... Who won rounds more decisively off of a non injured non impaired Wilder? Ortiz or Fury? Its a close call isn't it? I lean King Kong Ortiz. And ultimately, is schooling the P4P most unskilled Heavyweight boxer possibly ever... really something to brag about? Especially when you end up getting dropped twice in the process?

What about his struggles with Otto Wallin? Where did all of those skills go? He had a big slow southpaw oaf walking him down in a rudimentary fashion, occasionally winging in a looping over hand left, and that was more than enough to completely throw Tyson off his rhythm for the first six rounds of the fight. It wasn't until Otto started gassing that Tyson Fury finally found his rhythm. Then he reverted back to the scrapper that fought Chisora the first time around. He just bullied him around the ring and landed slapping body shots and wild looping shots up top, basically having to revert using his size to his advantage, because on that night his skills were simply not paying the bills. Sure he ran around the ring flicking out a jab a lot, but none of it was quite enough to fully negate Otto's forward march, nor was it enough to convincingly win Tyson very many of the early rounds. Otto was aided immeasurably by the massive cut he opened up on his eyebrow, but still... he opened up a cut with a punch. The point is, the mythical skill set of the Gypsy King was nowhere to be seen, he had to rely on pure raw physicality to bail him out.

Granted, Fury has always had issues with southpaws, he was a sitting duck for that looping left from Otto, and he's about as fast on his feet as Old Man Ortiz, yet he was backing him up throughout. He also got rocked to his core by glass jawed Abell at least twice before he stopped him, alongside all of the smaller guys that have dropped him or hurt him like Cunningham, McDermott, Pajkic and Chisora, the first three are 6'3, like Usyk, Chisora is 6'2. So who's to say if you add in Usyk's incredible stamina, that he won't be very easy to catch and wail on like Otto was in the second half of their fight. Who's to say that Usyk couldn't easily duck under his looping slappy sloppy hooks all night, then get in his grill and fat belly and work Fury's blobby ass over like a speedbag. Then pivoting out of the side door, turning him and keeping him discombobulated throughout. Yes Fury is fast for a big man, but this is also mainly against stationary targets, who are neither fast nor mobile. Remember in the Wilder rematch, from the fourth round on, Fury's shots were getting increasingly wild, inaccurate and slow to the point where Wilder was actually starting to roll with a lot of them. So if Tyson Fury tries that approach, Usyk might only have to play stay away for three or four rounds, then Fury will have considerably less in the tank, and could turn into a sitting duck.

My point is, Usyk vs. Fury is not anywhere close to a foregone conclusion. Fury's two biggest wins are a bit of an illusion which has given way to fanboy delusion. Both of which have ended up flattering him greatly, causing many fans to overrate him brutally. Is he good? Of course he is. But did he benefit greatly from the stylistically favorable match against Klitschko? Yes. Did he benefit greatly from Wilder having next to zero boxing IQ? Yes. Is his skill set next level? No. He uses his hulking size, incredible height and reach to his advantage to great effect, coupled with having more mobility and fluidity than your average behemoth, that is all. How much good would all of that do him if he was only 6'2? Would he even rate as a 5'8 welterweight? Probably not. His skill set has been vastly overrated, but he is a big SOB who uses being a big SOB to his advantage marvelously, and he has a lot of grit and will power. Eventually though, someone with a higher ring IQ will come along and negate all of those advantages with relative ease. And how much can that chin really take? Especially if it gets hit clean repeatedly.

At the very least, mull what I've said over.
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Very good post and exactly how I feel at the moment about TF

roughdiamond · Oct 11, 2021

Usyk vs Fury is somewhat reminiscent of Conn vs Louis imo. The smaller, faster boxer (who is equal if not superior in skill) will box in a way that maximises the advantage of his shorter height and speed. Even if Fury wins it will be a very hard fight for him imo, and I expect him to do all sorts of mauling and clinching. You're right about the speed perception. I think people will be shocked about how slow and sloppy Fury looks in comparison to Usyk, if they ever fight.

reckless · Oct 11, 2021

His style is just ugly to watch. His jab is great but that right hand looks so loopy. Lewis, Wlad and even Joshua have much better straight rights, ones that go straight down the middle.

Unforgiven · Oct 11, 2021

He stacks up well against any big heavyweight in history. Any HW at 240+, Fury compares well with them.

MrBarry465 · Oct 11, 2021

The bloke doesn't look like an anthlete, but for me no other heavyweight beats him. He just does not stop coming and is as hard as ****ing nails.

Usyk does not have the size and range to overcome him.

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Has The Now Mythical Skillset Of The Gypsy King Been Vastly Overstated & Blown Out Of Proportion?

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