Jack Johnson .Vs. John L. Sullivan

No worries.

The point I was making is that modern fighters fight much more like Louis than they do like Sullivan or Johnson.

We can only start comparing styles (boxer-slugger-swarmer, etc.) directly when comparing modern fighters to other modern fighters.

With Johnson and Sullivan, though, they're not really even playing the same game as current guys. Saying that Johnson and Toney (say) were the same because both are counterpunchers is misleading, because they're not using the same fundamental techniques. You might as well say that Rocky Marciano resembled Elwyn Hall (a Shotokan karate competitor) because both were "swarmers."

That's my opinion, anyway, based on the modicum of evidence on Sullivan and the footage of Johnson.

 

I see. I think I understand what you mean.

What you are saying correct me if I am wrong is a counter puncher from the 1910s is going to look different to one in 2000? If so then yes- as you said different game entirely.

 

Yes, exactly.

So my comparison between Johnson and Sullivan wasn't that both were similar counterpunchers, but that both were using a primitive style of boxing that has mostly evolved out of existence by now.

 

I understand you. The modern "style" we see today comes from the St-Pauls lineage watch Gibbons and Tunney to see what I mean.
Well If you didn't already know.

 

That interests me. Did someone document the modern style diffusing out of St-Pauls, and trace the lineage back to it?

 

I have taken it as common knowledge because it has been said by some respectable boxing guys I talk to.

I think you'll have to do your own digging I should not have presented it as a fact sources considered- sorry.

 

Sullivans style was more primitive though. Johnson's style was well advanced at least defensive speaking,

 

It might have been more advanced than Sullivan's (assuming we can guess at all about how Sullivan fought.) But the stance, footwork, punches, and a lot of the defense doesn't look much like modern technique to my eyes. He did glove block and jab at times though, yes.

Myself, I halfway wonder sometimes whether Johnson-fu, or whatever you want to call his idiosyncratic fistfighting art, would actually make him an awkward opponent against modern guys trained to fight orthodox opponents.

 

Johnson's defense has holes, but unlike Sullivan its based on quick reflexes and glove blocking. If Sullivan was all that, I'd pick him, based on his weak heavyweight my conclusion is it is not.

 

Saturday night was pretty primitive,imo.

 

Crude, maybe. But not primitive. Both guys had been trained in the modern stuff, even if Wilder, especially, seems on a mission to ignore it.

 

Having quick reflexes isn't really a sign of modernity, IMO. There have always been people with quick reflexes. Sullivan must have had them to some degree, or he wouldn't have succeeded in a profession where you have to dodge punches.

 

Both were gassed by the halfway mark, Wilder was running on fumes and Fury didn't have enough in the tank to go out and finish him off. Basic telegraphed crude swinging from Wilder and lots of arm punches from Fury.Highly entertaining, but they made Foreman and Lyle look like Locche and Pep in there.

 

Fighters like Wilder sometimes make me wonder why we even bother doing technical analysis for fantasy fights, like Ali leaning back from left hooks, or Louis dropping his left after a jab.

 

I know what you mean, Ali had great feet to go along with his reflexes and Louis' fault was largely corrected by Schmeling 2.Nice exchanging opinions with you.