It’s only a “reach advantage” if it is used to the advantage. Reach is significant if the fighter wins because he’s decided to use the reach and his opponent has allowed him to use it. Then it becomes the advantage. Otherwise he just has reach on the guy. Reach in itself isn’t doing anything on its own. It’s how it is used. More importantly it’s how the opponent allows you to use it. Wilder was a special puncher. His power was often at the end of his punch..so he often needed a lot of room. He needed to use space to his advantage for his long arms. And depending on who he was fighting he got that space or he didn’t. The types of guys that were served up were usually selected with this in mind. Ratliff had significantly longer reach and height over Thomas. That’s what you asked. If you want to watch the fight you can discover this for yourself. you seem so certain how Wilder would do against Thomas but you don’t appear to have seen any of Thomas’s prime! Explosive muscle?
Well you just basically made my case for me. Wilder kept guys at the end of his long arms to get full leverage on his shots. He didn't give up his height and reach unless you took it away from him and I think fury is like the only guy to that. Yeah and he isn't 5 inches taller than Thomas. I'm not certain how wilder would do. The only thing im certain of is that Thomas isn't "easily" outjabbing him. Explosive fast twitch muscle fibers. Name some athletic guys over 6'4 pre modern era who fit this description.
Firstly i'm not sure anyone stated Thomas will cruise along "without getting touched" or anything strongly parallel to that? I didn't overly read back so will be more than happy to be shown where someone has out and out stated Thomas won't get touched or close. You did say the other two are putting words in your mouth so it's obviously something you value which is more than fair if present. Regarding the height and reach thing yes there's no cases of Thomas outjabbing guys of Wilders dimensions but there's also no case of him not. It's an intangible for sure but hundreds of fights have been won with such questions (and larger) hanging over them. The thing is Wilder hasn't put on many jabbing exhibitions despite all his physical advantages and commonly poor quality of opponent. Can he even pump out the jab as often as guys like Thomas and Holmes without actually gassing? The reason some think Thomas will outjab him and or defeat him is that they don't think him much of a fighter and don't believe he's overly proven against top 5 opposition and better. The point is firstly that you are targeting past peak Thomas and secondly that there is no evidence of Thomas reacting badly to single punches even when past peak as explained even when targeting the stoppages to Tyson, Holyfield and Bowe (all notably "better" and more durable fighters than Wilder at their finest). Thomas took many unanswered punches from these guys for two reasons - they were great fighters and Thomas was also faded. I don't think there's any question he could have done better at his best even if he may not have won. Again he took punches off noted bangers like Witherspoon, Weaver and Coetzee in his prime with very little reaction. He also showed less inclination to be hit as easy or ship as much punishment at his sharpest even if most guys were below some that he fought past peak. You are zoning in on the fact that Thomas has never fought a guy with Wilders dimensions and the trouble that might theoretically cause yet there is no proof ever of Thomas getting banged out or put into huge trouble by single punches which is most of what Wilder relies on. You are stepping outside what we know about Thomas just like they are. Well actually we know for a fact Thomas was never susceptible to one punch turnarounds where as we don't overly know that he couldn't outjab a guy with Wilders height and reach and skillset or lack thereof. Now it's entirely possible Wilder can hurt him with one punch as he's shown big power against a lot of lesser fighters than Thomas. Wilder was dropped last fight but he did take a couple of big right hands very well at other points too. Wilder theoretically has a good chance of stopping guys he can hit flush yes. I'm not sure there's a big gap between them either but i can understand why some are very hesitant on Wilder. He's been around forever and hasn't beat much of anything when talking quality. The jury for many is still out even on Furey and Wilder didn't win once in there goes. Thomas wasn't given the chance to fight for the lineal title where as Wilder had three goes. That's a big difference right there as many thought Holmes was faded enough to be an almost even money bet with Thomas. Thomas didn't lose to any of the first 4 contenders he stepped up against and the losing happened as he spiraled. Berbick was disappointing but the next three he lost to while fading where Tyson, Holyfield and Bowe and i sure ain't picking Wilder to beat any of that lot so to say he lost to most of the best men he faced really needs the context that he was on the down and three of them are ATG H2H fighters in their prime. The burden of proof is also lacking for Thomas being knocked out by single punches or never coming back from them. Wilder has big power so it's a fair line to question as is Thomas outboxing Wilder with that jab. The questions for both points run both ways. What guy with a noted ATG jab did Wilder ever get around? I'm not convinced that was his grand strategy at all. I think Wilder was cautious because Ortiz really had him going in that first fight and also because his stamina flat out sucks. Everybody knows Wilders right hand is his meal ticket and Ortiz was wary of that but not good enough to keep it out long enough, not good enough to stop Wilder prior to getting stopped himself and not durable enough to take it. I wasn't using Ortiz to support "the idea that Thomas easily outboxes Wilder" so much as that he might outbox Wilder as we have a similar size guy that was comfortably leading Wilder on points so was keeping an open mind on the matter. Yes i'm not sure i see that easy an affair either but am open to it just as i am open to Wilder landing a huge right hand and opening the fight right up. It's an interesting fight because those he's been around forever Wilder is far from a proven commodity against top 5 opposition. It's a fascinating match really that would tell us more about Wilder than Thomas truth be told. We know exactly what Thomas did and didn't bring to the party where as the line is still a little blurred on Wilder.
This is the crux of the debate right here in a nutshell and it's flown through to the keeper - Sal considers Wilder to be far inferior in skills to Thomas and you don't. Ortiz was well up on points after 6 rounds so he must have taken something away from him often enough to lead.
Well, yes. He jabbed all night in stiverne 1 he practically won the whole fight with his jab and didn't gas. He did a Great job jabbing at duhaupas. Landed great spearing jabs in Fury in their recent fight. Wilder gassed because fury landed his 270 lbs of blubber on him with constant clinching. I think he has certainly demonstrated that he is competent enough to jab back at Thomas and use his height if it comes to that. And it's certainly possible he outjabs him. I'm not even disagreeing with the possibility. I just don't think he easily does so, especially given we have literally zero evidence of Thomas outjabbing a much taller man. In the absence of evidence it is mist logical to assume he would at least have mild difficulty since in general attempting to outjab a taller fighter is a difficult thing to do. Can we at least agree on that? Is it common to see a shorter fighter outjabbing a taller guy who isn't a complete scrub and has world level experience? I watched the Witherspoon fight a few months ago. Spoon had a hard time getting inside and didn't really get a chance to plant his feet and land consistently with his Sunday punch the overhand right. It was very much a boxing match, not a toe to toe affair. I'll give you the weaver fight, he had a hell of a hook, but I don't think he hits remotely as hard as wilder. His overall stoppage rare isn't very impressive. Well wilder is in a league of his own for one punch turnaround power. That's why it's a point of discussion. I'm not banking on it tho, it is unlikely but it can't be overlooked. Because wilder has brutally, brutally knocked out men far larger than Thomas with one hit on a regular basis. He brings an axe to a knife fight. They have every right to be hesitant about Wilder. He only has a handful of rated opponents and he lost to the best fighter he faced twice. That's not my issue. My issue was basically people writing him off as if the 80's alphabet boys are some amazing A class h2h monsters when less than year ago we had dozens of threads of people running their names through the mud and tearing their resumes apart. It's a but baffling. Some of them barely beat more ranked fighters than wilder did and have even fewer defenses. Ah but Thomas also lost his belt fairly quickly just like all the other underachievers of his era. Had he at least held onto the belt for a long time he could have pressured Holmes to either unify or vacate as Holmes was getting older and taking soft touches but that's another discussion. My main gripe with this whole Thomas thing is he didn't do a lot separate himself. I don't see his lack of lineal opportunities as a travesty since he let his own career get detailed taking drugs and losing so many big fights. You can't say he didn't get a chance to fight some big names. But it's his own fault he was on the down. We're not talking about injuries form car accidents or health problems beyond his control like surgery or strokes, he was a damn heroin addict. You know how many kids in the hood would have chopped off a toe to get half the opportunities he got in life? I see what you're saying but wilder's era isn't over yet so it's premature to lable any boxer in his division as having an ATG jab. Maybe if he had fought Wladmir we'd know but that ship sailed. So you think Ortiz 2 was just a fluke and Wilder simply got comprehensively outboxed then pulled a right hand out his ass? What did you think of Foreman vs Moorer? I agree it's a great matchup on paper. Wilder should have a tune up then fight Whyte or Ruiz or Parker next. Those fights would tell us a lot about his capabilities. We know fury is simply out of his reach unless fury just falls off inexplicably.
I think that's what he was getting at in order to get around the elephant in the room which is that a shorter man can absolutely outbox a taller man on the condition the taller man is far inferior and/or incompetent. By dismissing Wilder's skill in comparison to Thomas he can justify the position since if they're even remotely close to the same level of ability h2h, it's a little harder to reasonably claim Thomas could "easily" outjab him.
I'd have to re-watch them but my recollection of the Stiverne fight is low output and Wilder just pushing the jab against a guy not doing much of anything. The Thomas jab was a hammer comparatively. I also remember Stiverne getting in close numerous times later on but not having the workrate or talent to take advantage and Wilder certainly tired as things went on despite little output from Stiverne. Duhaupus wasn't much chop and he shipped heaps off Wilder prior to being stopped on his feet. It certainly makes a sudden stoppage against a durable guy like Thomas questionable. Wilder didn't establish his jab like Thomas used to in that one. It's a long time since Wilder established a jab. Watching some highlights of Duhaupus it's eye opening how many big blows he took from Wilder. Perhaps he doesn't stop everyone with as few punches as we think. It would be interesting to say the least. I think we'd see Thomas jabbing his way in looking to pound away in close more so than some standoff jabbing duel. Spoon hit hard with the left hook too. Virtually every time he landed something substantial Thomas came back hard. That you mention Spoons trouble landing right hands is a plus for Thomas because Spoon was a high level fighter that was quite good at finding a home for that right. "Remotely" is overstating it i think. His overall stoppage rate is dimmed by losing 8 fights before finding his place in boxing and fighting on too long. We've seen Weaver knock out some quality guys with not man blows and staggering a top fighter like Holmes. Weaver's biggest problem at times was a lack of fire in the ring. Perhaps he is. I still want to see more vs top guys. He's landed hammers on guys that didn't go. Yes it's more about how they themselves rate Wilder. They think he's a spud. When he was at his best he had a few very very good wins. The win over peak Witherspoon was one of the best of the 80's but some don't seem to want to admit it for underlying reasons. No-ones saying anything other but the fact of the matter is it affected his career and it should be noted. It is what it is. One can't ignore the fact he declined early because it was likely self inflicted and pretend he was still peak. Well Wlad apparently snoozed him in sparring but that was pretty early on of course and at the end of the day in the gym. The talk was he was kept well clear of Wlad. But absolutely, his career is still going. Well it certainly showed he had no interest (or perhaps ability) in trying to control the fight and completely relied on landing something big later on. I certainly don't see it as a positive. A boxer of his size should have been able to command a lead with his reach and jab and the threat of a right hand but he certainly wasn't able to do that. It further gave credence to those that believe he is limited and has little to fall back on except power. It's a fair take too. Foreman was somewhat lucky yes. They say you make your own luck in boxing but a fair few things lined up for him not least of all that Moorer didn't have much of a chin and ignored his corner. If Foreman could have led he would have rest assured but he was simply outboxed until numerous intangibles came into play. He would have axed Moorer earlier if he was able to. There's numerous possible scenario's for Thomas - Wilder isn't there. I can see either winning. Ruiz would certainly be interesting but yes a fight with someone decent. I would have loved to have seen Furey - Usyk and Joshua - Wilder next up!
He actually said it in his very first post so he wasn't trying to get around anything later on unless i misunderstand.
Ratliff was listed as 6’5” with a reach of 85” on the Tale of the tape against Thomas. So it’s not so different to Wilder. This content is protected
Couple of things: -Ratlif doesn't appear to have a very good jab. Was he known as a good jabber who could fight tall? -Thomas is not keeping Ratliff at the end of his jab and cruising along, he's walking him down and getting closer. Still impressive tho that he is consistently beating him to the punch with a shorter reach. -Ratlif appears to have trained with Terrel at ring side who was shouting instructions. Neither guy is a good measuring stick for Wilder. Both were very lanky cautious guys who lack power and fight with both hands up in a high guard orthodox stance. Wilder was a very explosive athletic guy with serious power and unorthodox stances. -Thomas keeps his left arm low. He is wide open for a looping right hand from wilder. -you're being a bit hypocritical cherry picking and accepting the tale of the tape when it suits your argument and ignoring it when it doesn't. For example, the threads where you argued for multiple pages about Ruiz and Satterfield
