Your Top 5 Greatest Jr. Welterweight Of All Time List?

I think that at their best both could. Taylor certainly was two seconds away from beating Chavez. Tzysu absolutely could KO anyone at 140. Whether he would have is another story that we will never know. I think it is one of the deepest divisions historically. Not much between the top 15. That's all that I meant.

 

It's not harsh in the slightest. He isn't up to the standard of those in the top ten.

Hurtado, Mitchell, MAG, and Hernandez were all decent fighters. Nothing crazy, but good, solid wins. However, Calvin Grove? Calvin Grove means less than nothing on Tzysu's record. He was shot beyond belief, and was a same-day weigh in featherweight in his prime, whereas Tzysu was a day before weigh-in era junior welterweight. Massive size difference, plus Grove being in his final career fight, ten years after he last owned a world title. Ruelas was no spring chicken by the time he fought Tzysu, and even in his prime, he was nothing special. Neither of the Ruelas brothers were. Mayweather was old; Leija was old; Bramble was old; and Chavez was old. That's the problem with most of Tzysu's wins. They're all past their best.

Is Hurtado, Mitchell, MAG, and Hernandez a good enough base to get into a stacked top ten? No, not one of mine anyway. And as a crowning achievement, beating Judah isn't good enough to get him in it either. He also lost, in the heat of his prime, to Vince Phillips.

The guys above him are more impressive historically IMO. I could actually see Tzysu lower before I could see him higher.

 

I think Randall Bailey hit harder than all of them. One of the few pure one-shot guys I've seen at 140. Holt, Cotto, Troyanovsky, DLH, Duran, Petrolle, and Matthysse were all big punchers, too.

 

Had his career not been cut short im sure Zack Padilla would be in the top 5.

 

Not looking to argue with you because I respect you but take a look at Antonio Cervantes record. You will find a lot of losses to guys that were lesser fighters than Vince Phillips. I not saying Tzysu is better because overall I don't think he was as versatile or complete but I am saying that Tzysu is one of the deadliest fighters ever at his weight class and absolutely could starch anyone with that right hand. I would also like to add that Hurtado, Mitchell, MAG, and Hernandez is a damn fine group especially Shamba who is criminally underrated.

Being an old fighter, I guess I look at something different when I rate fighters. I am less impressed by historical popularity and more impressed by how guys fight on film.

 

Bailey and Tzysu both had murderous right hands. Different from each other in that Tzysu's was a straight right. Randell Bailey is another guy that doesn't get the credit he deserves as a fighter.

 

Not in the centre of his prime, there isn't. His only losses in his prime were Locche and Benitez. No shame there.

I disagree. They're good fighters, I'm not saying otherwise for a second, but I'm not impressed by beating them if they're the bulk of your record. If we did a top ten wins for Tzysu, and these guys were at/near the bottom, I'd be very impressed. But they're not, they're four of his five (or six) best wins. Most of these guys are quite unproven as well. MAG, Hernandez and Hurtado are all known for losses.

I'm just not impressed by what Tzysu did at 140. Not in the way I am those above him.

 

Fair enough. He can only fight who is available to him in his era. I just see an absolute beast when I watch his fights. He is like like mini Joe Louis in the way that he applies pressure with his his jab and gets and opponent to overextend and then drops that straight right hand in there. Regarding Cervantes, I know he wasn't in his prime for most of those losses. My point was that he is not unbeatable and a guy like Tzysu that was excellent and capitalizing on mistakes would be a major threat to him. There truly is not much of a gap between the top dogs at 140.

 

What difference does it make if he was out of his prime then? Cervantes didn't have the luxury of having two billion amateur fights. He learnt on the job as an inexperienced, underdeveloped young man. If I'm not mistaken, he was the same age when he lost to Gomez - his last loss before Locche - as Tzysu was when he turned pro. Once Cervantes got past his learning curve, he only really struggled with one type of fighter, and Tzysu doesn't fit that mild.

KT would try and jab his way inside on Cervantes, and would be met with a volley of long uppercuts and peircing right hands. He was so open for that right hand, I don't know how he'd avoid Cervantes', or how he'd keep up with him. Kid Pambele was a far better, and more accomplished fighter IMO.

 

How funny. You have it all figured out except for one thing, Cervantes never fought anyone remotely as strong as Tzysu. How the hell do you know he could keep him off him. When I talk about Tzysu pressure I'm not talking about pressure the way you think. Tzysu wasn't a pressure fighter like Pryor that used volume, he walked guys back with methodical pressure the same way GGG does. Again, I'm not saying Tzysu would win, we have know way of ever knowing but I am saying he was just as good in a different way. You seem to be quick to give Cervantes a pass for his early losses and chaulk them up to learning on the job while shutting on Tzysu for losing to Phillips. I know you weren't alive back then but Vince Phillips was an excellent fighter that had a very bad drug problem. No shame losing to that guy at all. I rwmber hearing about how Vince would beat the **** out of Winky in Florida gyms back in the day.

 

Aaron Pryor was unreal.

 

Locche-Ortiz was considered a bad decision that even locals were unhappy Ortiz didn’t get the win. Laguna he was considered lucky to get a draw too. Perkins I’ve read as reported as a gift and even the Pruitt one too. He was a fantastic and unique fighter, but oftentimes didn’t put up a ton of offense, instead putting on a show with his rare defensive style knowing that with the four point system in Argentina, he couldn’t lose a decision in non-title fight or a close fight in a title fight period. His record outside Argentina is poor, and while it’s not a case closer, the truth can often be in the middle. A virtuoso win in Japan, but no wins in the other three. Good opponents in the case of Cervantes and Peppermint though.