64 Liston vs 74 Ali

Seriously? The guy who couldn't chase down Machen, whose best win is the most fragile champion in history?

I want you to break down exactly what you think Liston is going to do without these sweeping statements.

 

It would take longer for Ali to beat him, and he'd have to rely on guile WAY more. It's quite possible Ali gets knocked down by a hook during.

Ultimately, Liston gets outwitted, floored ,and stopped in 14 at the latest.

I thought the most fragile champion was Seldon. Or perhaps Douglas.

 

Lineal? I mean it's a toss up between like Floyd or maybe Fitz ect the littler guys.

Douglas got up off the floor in the 7th? 8th? from a Tyson uppercut he had some whiskers.

 

I'm thinking of him as actual champ. The Holyfield Massacre...

I see your point about lineal. But Patterson WAS a two-time champ, back when there was only one belt.

 

Thanks for the reply!
I think Liston was more accurate overall, & more skilled in some ways.
Liston is less skilled at closing off the ring, George was better at parrying & moving his opponents around (technically much of this illegal).
It may well be that Liston would be more accurate when Ali was on the ropes. Or Ali would absorb most of the force on his arms & shoulders again.

But you do not have a case re: Liston's age.
In that video-at 17:30 actually-Jerry only states that Liston was a lot older.
That is asserting a premise without evidence.
"A lot of people" believe a lot of nonsense too. Whether in politics or science. Such as the world is flat.

That the census *may* have been inaccurate does not make it likely.
Especially against all the other evidence, I alluded to some-that you can just find on his heavily citatione Wikipedia page.
Everything about his timeline & most everyone's recollection including Sonny & his Mother shows he was born in the early 1930's.
It is implausible that there would be a bunch of years unaccounted for-& again, he would not have been listing with his insanely abusive Father if he was no longer a kid.

 

Prime Liston was not a beast. He was a hype job

 

Liston could have won in 74 he didnt have stamina issues and he was technically sound and Ali could not move or punch as fast as he did in 64

 

I have argied that Liston did have an 84" windspan, in part due to enormous hands & broad chest.
But elsewhere it is listed as lesser, more like near 80", we will never know.
At any rate it was long-& he was no more than 6' 1/2". Ali almost towered over him in the ring.

 

Prime Liston is top 5 all time

 

Regarding his age, one thing I did forget to add was the possibility he switched identities with one of his brothers. Nothing would surprise me.

 

I was talking about HWs

 

Evidence in tow or not, if Izenberg states re Liston "A lot older than people think" , I'd guess he means more than just a few years older than 32 as at Miami. Too bad the interviewer didn't ask Jerry as to why he believed same. Pretty sure most of us here would've asked him to expand on same. Jerry himself was born Sep 1930 so perhaps he has something more substantial to say on the matter rather than what he offered.

The 1930 and 1940 census' are in contradiction. If you accept one then you are technically rejecting the other but with tweaks and assumptions, we might try to have our cake and eat it too.

I understand that it might be easier (assumed more likely) to accept an incorrectly recorded age (1940) than the accidental omission of Liston's existence altogether (1930). Working back from Curtis' and Sonny's listed ages as at April 1940, respectively 11 and 10, the implication that Sonny wasn't born as at Apr 1930 and that the prior recording of Curtis being only 6 months old (born Oct 1929) as at Apr 1930 of course doesn't hold . We should also note that on the 1940 census, Curtis' age was originally written up as 12, then crossed out and replaced with 11.

Suffice to say, the compiling of information as at that time was a bit dodgy to say the least. I don't know if Curtis' birth date has been corroborated by any other records aside from the census. Truth can be stranger than fiction though. Rather than a later hijacking of an another sibling's identity, could it be just as possible that Charles Sonny was somehow inadvertently omitted from the 1930 census, the error compounded by Charles Sonny's age being incorrectly assigned to Curtis with Curtis actually being that little bit older as at 1930? Thus making sense of the ages 10 and 11 as at Apr 1940 with Sonny turning 11 himself later in the year. I can tell you that I've had to extract information under similar circumstances and the data can be easily confused and information omitted altogether.

Here's a short clip of Jim Jacobs showing Floyd Patterson vision of Liston in the golden gloves. Jacobs cites the footage as being filmed in 1952, but records indicate Liston's amateur career starting and ending in 1953. Liston applied for his birth cert. in 1953 so I wonder if it was for the purpose of his registering as an amateur. I dunno. Anyway, appearances can be deceiving but Liston does appear that much younger than we came to know him but his physique is already well filled out. As per his birth cert. the footage is apparently depicting a 20 or /21 year old Liston but he could easily pass for mid 20's at least. I've scanned through the FBI files but they're useless, citing possible YOBs as 32 or 33. Interesting that one police record writes up Sonny as 6'1" and 230 lbs but describes his build as "medium". Wtf? LOL.

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You can see Liston had extraordinarily long arms but there is that curious listing of 80 1/2" for Leotis Martin and the suggestion by one commentator that Cleveland William's reach (79") was longer. Shavers' arms looked long but not freakishly so like Liston's. Shavers' reach was recorded as 79" and even though he had a shorter torso than Sonny his arms still didn't appear to hang as long as Liston's.

 

Seriously. 74 Ali doesn't have the legs to run from a prime Liston the full 15 rounds

 

Great post. Yes, it's a shame we can't find out Liston's exact age.