64 Liston vs 74 Ali

When did Sonny go a full fifteen rounds let alone twelve against someone competent?

Off the top of my head he went twelve once against Machen who ran all night and offered up little to no offence.

 

It is just really unlikely man.
The timelines & the recollections of his Mother & Sonny himself support the other available evidence.
It is a great story that he was 137 years old ;-) when he fought Ali & many want to believe it.
But it is just not logically tenable.

 

The simplest explanation for Liston not being in the 1930 census is he was not born yet-dates from 1930 to 1932 are listed a few times & are very possible.
But let us say the earliest age you listed as possible for Sonny turning 11 in late 1940-might be correct.
He still would have been only 34 when he first fought Ali.

While I think he was born no earlier than the early '30's-& the explanations for earlier dates are quite speculative-nothing you wrote is consistent with Jerry's unsupported statement that he was "a lot" older than listed.

 

Sure but I didn’t highlight Izenberg’s claim for being consistent with either census, rather, I noted that the expression he chose to use would reasonably be interpreted as meaning more than the 2 years extra that many are willing to afford Liston.

As I said, the two census aren’t in agreement anyway, so accepting one or the other requires rejection in part of the opposing census which puts the process into discredit one way or another anyway. . Enter equal speculations and assumptions from either end to attempt to explain how one census may be correct and why the other is not.

Unfortunately many self professed historians are flat wrong or short on supporting details re their claims. over many aspects in boxing. Many defer to urban legend even when, as I suspect, they do in fact know better and they’re just talking something up for the sake of it.

As I also tried to highlight that, rabid and well resourced historian Jimmy Jacobs couldn’t even get the year right for the amateur footage of Liston (stating 1952 instead of 1953) and as at that time he was showing Patterson the footage, just prior to Floyd facing Sonny, the footage wasn’t even 10 years old and Jacobs was already skewing the facts.

Your point re the timelines and context of Sonny’s life is acknowledged and definitely should be factored in.

 

Liston was about 39 in the Ali fights, you could see it in his face, Liston would do the same as Foreman and gas himself out and get stopped

 

He would have good success landing his big, powerful jab and look to follow with his lefthook. Ali could move and box in 74 but he also would have to rest for some rounds.
In top condition Liston would be applying consistent pressure and IMO Sonny could take Ali punches when he had to. Sonny was sharper than George as a boxer. More accurate and just as strong.
It's a good fight. Ali probably has to dig deep to win.

 

His actual age less a factor than his lifestyle. if he was 39 he was 39 going on 60.

 

Machen was awfully silly, running from a guy who wasn't dangerous. You would think Eddie would have realized Liston wasn't that strong after he got hit. At least after he climbed back into the ring.

 

Notwithstanding preceding rumours, I will say a lot of people seem to focus more on how old Liston was and appeared as at the first Ali fight and to a lesser degree the return match in Lewiston. In Miami even Ali was barking that Sonny was 40 years if he was a day.

By fight’s end, the facial damage on Liston was obvious but it also uniquely lent to Sonny appearing to have aged 10 years from first bell to last. By comparison while Foreman looked horrendous after the Stewart fight it didn’t age him. He just looked very badly beat up. Period. Notably, Liston looked a lot fresher when they went around again in Maine.

Someone said that the autopsy report and/or coroner said that Liston’s body, organs etc. were that of a man much older than 39. The same thing was said of Errol Flynn who died at age 50 but who also looked older. There was no dispute re Errol’s age though, 1909 to 1959. It was simply incredibly hard living.

Co-incidentally, Max Baer’s year of birth and year of death were exactly the same as Errol’s. Like Flynn, Maxie also looked much older than his 50 years.

 

Add six to eight years of wear and tear to all of them, and a bullet and near death experience to Williams, and they were Ali's title competition too. As well as Patterson who 62/63 Liston bombed out in under a round but took Ali 12 despite being badly hampered by a bad back.

Not having a go at Ali here. His competition was good enough in the 60s for many to rate this version of him as the greatest heavyweight ever. Much of that competition had already fallen at the hands of Liston, though, when they were fresher fighters so you have to acknowledge that in Sonny's favour.

Sonny would have trained for a 74 Ali far more than the young Clay who had been knocked down badly by Henry Cooper last time out. If Ali goes to the ropes and invites Sonny to whale away, Sonny will happily do that for as long as it takes. Ali would have had to move to win points because standing off a patient boxer with Liston's reach isn't going to win him any rounds.

Could 32 year old Ali have kept moving enough to box his way to win enough rounds? On that ring canvas? In that humidity?

I'm surprised at how few people are picking Sonny. And even more surprised that some are giving him zero chance. I don't know who I'm picking. What Ali did in Zaire was one of the most incredible things I ever saw in boxing but that was a case of styles. George was all big, wild, energy-sapping swings which Ali could ride for the most part, knowing George would fade. That isn't what he's getting with Sonny. Ali would have had to find another way to win and, by the end of 74, laying on the ropes and just outlasting his man was increasingly becoming his main modus operandi.

 

Ali being rated as the greatest ever has nothing to do with his comp from the 60s it was what he showed then and did later in combination.
Most people rightfully regard Ali's comp in the 60s as extremely soft, taking Patterson 12 or wiping him out is irrelevant Ali didn't want to even hurt Floyd by Patterson's own mouth and dominated just about every round against him but here's my question in a H2H discussion how does there work against Floyd effect this fight?. Just because Liston beat them first does not mean anything the guys in the 60s were not that great and Ali could drop them off his resume and still be the HW GOAT.

Ali isn't going to be standing still, his leg's weren't even bad at this point correct (Super fight 2) and if he fought the way he did against Frazier in the second fight this would be humiliating no matter what shape he came in. A better question is can Liston even go 15 Ali already proved he had enough left for 15 multiple times and can win where as Sonny went 12 once against someone who didn't want to fight back. Can Liston handle being counter punched and worn down by a much more mature savvy Ali in that heat and humidity did we see Sonny cope in the heat at all for a long fight? Who says this is in Zaire either did Op specify?

He already knows how to win, he has been doing it since the late 60s and he did it to Frazier in 74.
Here is the fun part in all this we know Ali is making it to the bell, do you think over the course of 15 Liston is going to get off his stool? being clinched roughed up and having his eyes jabbed shut and eating right hands like candy? He will fade late, it will be close early but Muhamad is much to clever and durable for Liston.

 

Ali was a near prime 212 lb for Norton/Frazier and 216 1/2 lb for Foreman. When he weighed in on the Carson show for Norton II he very nearly looked like the Ali of ‘64.

As per weight, Ali was definitely conditioned for mobility v Ken/Joe and his movement in both those fights was very good but still not without periodic breaks.

Ali looked particularly big, more muscular and strong for Foreman and his weight might suggest he wasn’t necessarily as accented on dancing as he claimed or at the least he wanted to also take some extra power and muscle in wth him.

The quality of Ali’s flat footed power punching in Zaire was lost in translation a bit because the true steel in Foreman’s chin was not yet fully appreciated. It was a disservice to Ali to simply say George punched himself out. From first bell, Ali very much punched George out also and in fact staggered him in rd 3, just as he wobbled Liston in that very same rd in 1964.

So Ali could shoot for his best mobility as at 74 or come in heavier, stronger for fast, hard flat footed, punching or something in between.

As for Sonny, his own degree of success with the jab and some very good body work against the most fleet footed version of Ali was somewhat over sighted in the shock of his eventual surrender. Some might’ve seen it as a forgone conclusion but it still would’ve been nice to see how the balance of the Miami fight unfolded, even if Liston still ultimately lost.

Like most here, I do not see the rope a dope as a viable option but that strategy might be over romanticised anyway in so far as depicting Ali as just laying there, doing nothing for extended periods since he was also doing some very damaging counter punching off the ropes also.

Put my money on Sonny? At the least, I know I’d be willing to shell out for the PPV but would p***ed if proceedings were abruptly halted as in Miami and Lewiston.

 

Thanks Pugguy, it just seems one census being incorrect is much more plausible than all the other indications that Liston was born no earlier than the early 30's is wrong.
That error would be understandable, but people *want* to think Liston was much older.
But there is no evidence to make this likely. Occam's Razor & "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" dictate it is by far more likely he was not too far into his 30's when he fought Ali.

Looking older is meaningless. It was saidd he looks much younger in the sparring footage-but the next footage we have of him is very few years later. Hard living & genetics-some folks look older when young *without* being drinkers.
And vice versa, some look younger even without living clean.

 

I tend to agree, although the small soft ring makes it hard for Ali, but with the same referee/getting away with holding & puling behind the head, I strongly favor him.

One quibble is I-& most people-do not consider Ali's competition in the 1960's "extremely soft".
Almost everyone, certainly HWs, are accused of having terrible competition.
Ali's was decent then, it has been compared to, but I woul say a shade below, what Tyson faced in the '80's.
Two shades if you consider head to head/the size differential, but Ali never had trouble with the Big Brutes.
If Ali only fought "winos from the alley" ( a phrase I love) then, Liston's competiton was straight from the ICU!