Why would we expect historic heavyweights to do well in the modern day?

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by VOXDEI, Oct 29, 2021.



  1. VOXDEI

    VOXDEI DUNCE Full Member

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    Of course a fighter can only ever be a great of his own era, but H2H, what reasons do we have to think heavyweights of previous eras would do well today?

    There are reasons to think that new fighters are better, here are a few, you've heard them before:

    1) Larger gene-pool: More people have access to boxing gyms and trainers than ever, the sport is more global than ever, the population of traditional boxing countries (US, UK, Eastern Europe and South America) has either grown or stayed roughly the same.

    2) Better understanding of sports science: The nutritional information and health science available to the modern boxer, or athlete in general, is far superior, and the general attitude of top athletes towards the inportance of nutrition is very different.

    3) Theory: The techniques and tactics of previous generations are more readily available through the internet than ever before and so modern fighters have a distinct advantage in this regard as well over previous generations.

    4) Superior PEDs(?): Im open to being corrected on this one but performance enhancing drugs are, to my knowledge, more sophisticated in their application than they were in yesteryear, even though this is not a legitimate strategy we should expect that various PEDs have been used by athletes throughout the sports pro history. Potentially, the ability to test for these drugs was less accurate in previous genrations and this would also count against them in any judgement of overall ability.

    Those of you who maintain that Ali, Foreman, Lewis, et al, would wipe the floor with modern heavyweights or at least not look out-of-place, what arguments can you make to counterract the above, or at the very least equalise against, to justify your position?

    Arguments about a specific boxer's skills (physical or otherwise) are not relevant here, as we have already stated a boxers skills can only be measured in a relative sense against those of his own generation.

    I am genuinely interested to hear general arguments as to why a previous generation of fighters, say the 60s-70s era, would be able to mix it with the heavyweights of today.

    Leave your thoughts below!
     
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  2. Col Mortimer

    Col Mortimer The question isn't indiscreet.The answer could be Full Member

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    Huge contradiction in the above 2 paragraphs.

    I'm not gonna bother.

    I do get like that sometimes.

    Night all.
     
  3. miniq

    miniq Tyson Fury Undisputed HW Champion 18/5/24 Full Member

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    Bring a boxer from the early 1900's and stick Tyson Fury in front of him I think he'd have a heart attack

    Same applies in most other sports, modern NFL players etc
     
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  4. vast

    vast Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    H2h makes no sense given the stark changes between eras. The training methods and diets have evolved, not to mention the widespread use of PEDs in todays game. Natural ability hasn't changed much while toughness most likely has declined as people are more pampered today (food choices, health care, etc).

    It makes more sense just to look at individual accomplishments and compare fighters that way.
     
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  5. Finkel

    Finkel Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I was watching a video about shot putting this morning. Sounds like a tangent, but it's kind of related.

    There is a guy called Ryan Crouser, strong, agile, fast and explosive, and just destroying the field, and breaking long standing records.

    Oh and he is 201cm

    That isn't to take anything away from Crouser, but how can we expect athletes of old to compete consistently with these new super sized athletes who don't fit the mould of lumbering giants
     
  6. Mike_b

    Mike_b Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Man guys like foreman, Lewis and Bowe are like action heroes for us. They paved the way for the next generation. Of course we revere them. It's like looking at your pops, at one point you thought he was the strongest man in the world. It's that feeling of nostalgia that we grew up in a era with these guys as number Ones so we clung on to that. We all love to say "he ain't **** " about the new guys, but mark my words, the kids watching fury, usyk, and wilder will probably do the next collection of comparing when they grow up and see new heavyweights. It's just a personal favorite thing, something that we were connected to and never forgot lol.
     
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  7. Nonito Smoak

    Nonito Smoak Ioka>Lomo, sorry my dudes Full Member

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    People often think "bring Joe Louis to modern day to fight Klitschko" as opposed to "drop Klitschko in 1935 and fight Joe Louis." Many of the pro-modern arguments also work in favor of the old timers.
     
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  8. VOXDEI

    VOXDEI DUNCE Full Member

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    Huge contradiction in the above sentence.
     
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  9. VOXDEI

    VOXDEI DUNCE Full Member

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    Natural ability has probably grown with physical size given both are selected for in the genes. If one has increased we should assume both have.

    Inclined to agree over toughness, but at the extremes there are still tough guys, even when the general population is soft and flabby.
     
  10. VOXDEI

    VOXDEI DUNCE Full Member

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    The new boys still have a genetic advantage, but I appreciate the line of thought.

    The problem is it becomes difficult to isolate internal natural talent (non physically speaking), which i presume is what youre getting at; the idea that Wlad might be equally talented to Ali, take away many of his modern advantages and it'll be a tossup fight.

    Unfortunately, we struggle to do this because this kind of talent is relative to those in your own era.

    But, there are reasons to expect/ assume modern fighters are more naturally talented. (Selection) So your point becomes moot,imo.
     
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  11. vast

    vast Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Larger fighters exhibit greater ability today. Fighters of average size between eras don't.
     
  12. Finkel

    Finkel Well-Known Member Full Member

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    At the same time @VOXDEI , I think it is a little misguided to discount Lennox Lewis. In that, I would term him a modern super heavyweight. And, Kronk style which seems to be the dominant style of said super heavies, went through Lewis, to Klitschko and now onto Fury.

    Also, I don't want to discount for some early prototype big men in sport who were ahead of their time in terms of marrying sheer size with skill and athleticism. I suspect those athletes would likely be dominant in any past era and possibly still now. I'm thinking someone like, Wilt Chamberlain in Basketball. And I think Lennox Lewis fits into that category too.
     
  13. SOUTHERMOST

    SOUTHERMOST Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Only heavies but modern fighters are too big why not create a new division over 240 lbs no fair compare Fury vs old timer.
     
  14. FrankinDallas

    FrankinDallas Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Fury would poop in his Gypsy underpants before he'd have the heart attack with John L. Sullivan in front of him.

    And I know what you meant.
     
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  15. catchwtboxing

    catchwtboxing Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    The old-timers would have done fine, except that a lot of heavies would be cruisers.

    I know of few guys in today's era who could throw 100 punches in the 15th round of a fight like Mariciano, Or even go 15, for that matter, much less 20 or more. And that is not to hype Marciano above Louis or Ali...its just an easy illustration.

    As for the nutrition and understanding the science more, or whatever phrase was used, the old-timers had compensatory tricks. Not many guys today are soaking their hands in beef line to harden them, or chewing raw tree-sap to strengthen the jaw muscles.

    Are you telling me that Andy Ruiz can be a heavyweight champ today, and Sonny Liston couldn't?

    GTFOH!