Who ranks higher as a heavyweight, Joe Frazier or Mike Tyson?

Looking at it from here, Team Tyson took the Holyfield match being convinced that he was significantly faded. Evander had some Ls because he was fight at the championship level while Mike locked up. The Bobby Cyz fight must have been the one that made it seem safe.

 

Agreed. It seems King went to great lengths to match Bruno and Tyson - and did so again to ensure Tyson faced Seldon.

Both Bruno and Seldon were fly-by-nighters, in terms of their respective ratings, based on them each having a strap. They were neither of them ranked in the Ring Ratings, prior to picking up their titles, and both retired promptly after handing those titles to Tyson - dropping out of the rankings accordingly.

 

Holyfield opened up in the betting, as the massive underdog. I think you could get a price on Holyfield, in some shops, of 27-1 against.

Even the mass of late money on Holyfield left him no better than 5-1 against.

 

They both looked the part. Looks are what count.

 

I remember debating with some guys when I was in basic training at that time they were convinced Tyson was just unbeatable and Holyfield would be roadkill. Those press conferences for Tyson/Holyfield alarmed Horne Tyson's manager. Evander's confidence was just making Tyson smaller by the minutes
At that point, deep down Mike knew he was probably gonna get his ass kicked. So Horne Makes up the lie about not wanting to fight a convicted ****** (Holyfield said) alledgly.. That was a desperate move to reaxh for.

 

Only a minority of people I knew were giving Holyfield a shot. Even fewer felt certain of a Holyfield win.
I remember that build-up, with Holyfield staying cool and nothing Tyson or his team said or did seemed to sway him.

If I recall correctly, the claim about Holyfield saying he wouldn't fight a convicted so-and-so apparently stemmed back to some interview/comment Holyfield gave back in '91, prior to Tyson being convicted. Translated in real terms, Holyfield was not being drawn into replying to a loaded question; essentially saying if Tyson is convicted (and goes to jail), it's going to be difficult to make the match happen.

Fast-forward to '96 and it did seem a tad unrealistic and a little strange to use this as a point of contention; the basis for a grudge campaign for team Tyson. Tyson was indeed subsequently convicted and unable to box for a few years and was now getting the fight anyway. As you suggest - a desperate move.

 

Wow, I never saw this before. Mike's face changed big time when he saw he wasn't bothering Evander at all. Thanks for mentioning this, @ETM good man.

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This is a little disingenuous.

Frazier did beat the best of his era. Ali was not even a ranked active professional fighter when Frazier was on a rampage cleaning out the division. The two champions of his era were Ellis and Mathis and he beat them both decisively along with multiple other guys ranked in the top 10. Then Ali came back and he beat him too.

The only top guy he was unable to beat was Foreman, both losses occuring past his peak. Tyson did not beat the best top guys available and went 0-3. He also lost during his peak to a guy whose basically a footnote in the division.

 

Using your style of logic, Spinks, Tucker and Ruddock were the best of his era and he went 4-0 against them.

 

I'm wondering how debatable it is that Spinks was the best heavyweight when Tyson beat him. I'm not sure he could have beaten Page (on a good day for Greg, the man was insanely inconsistent). Or Thomas. Probably not Witherspoon.

Heck...could Spinks have beaten Tucker? Not sure at all on that.

That said, there were people picking Michael during the Tyson fight.

I'm just speculating, I personally thought Mike's win over Spinks was pretty damn impressive. Certainly more impressive than the Holmes win.

 

Otto the bus driver (more precisely, Stefan something).

Spinks' main claim to fame was dethroning a past it (but completely undefeated) Holmes. That's still something, and being that Holmes was about 36 and active (as opposed to 38 and 1.75 years inactive against Mike), I'd say that's still impressive.

It wasn't impressive how he went about it, and he got gifted the second fight in an obvious robbery. But he did it, took the title from a top 5 or six ATG. That's no joke.

 

Right, so you've sent me down a rabbit hole here... It looks like a longer version of this presser is available here:

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It features Christy Martin, Tito Trinidad and Terry Norris. Were Tito and Terry scheduled to box on this card? I can't speak Spanish and the translation given seems to mention Lovato (Tito beat Ray Lovato by KO6 on 7th Sept) so perhaps he's just coming off that win. Or is Don King just showcasing his fighters? More info needed please!

It was a great undercard but I'm wondering if Tito and Norris were originally meant to be on it.

 

Well, no, by my logic the best of his era would be Berbick, Tucker, and Smith, the champions who had the 3 belts. Tyson did beat them decisively, but then he lost to a footnote journeyman whose career fell apart immediately afterwards.

He came back after prison and the champions were Bruno, Seldon, and Moorer. He beat two of them, then lost to a man 4 years older who looked like crap in his last few fights and was written off as an underdog.

Frazier beat the two champions of his era (Mathis and Ellis) then beat the lineal champion when he came back. He then lost to a guy who would go on to become an ATG.

So once again, the glaring issue in the Tyson vs Frazier comparison is that while Tyson did better middle work (and even that's debatable), their highs and lows are worlds apart. Frazier's losses are nowhere near as bad, and his best win is far ahead of any of Tyson's individual best wins. Frazier managed at least one win against the 2 elites of his era, Tyson was obliterated all attempts be had against the elites of his era.

 

I find it highly unlikely and I guess Spinks considered this to be the case, as well.

Spinks and Butch Lewis were smart when it came to the business side of this and they weren't going to look a gift horse in the mouth. I think they knew it was time to cash out by then and they found a route to do so.

Tucker was too high a risk, with next to no reward. So, they were prepared to let the IBF title go, in order to take a money fight, with the sozzled Cooney.