Does current Canelo beat Mayweather he originally faced?

Cobra33,

I respect what you’ve written above. But again, you are talking hypothetically about 2 completely different versions of each fighter. Completely different.

It would be like me saying to you that I think a prime Roy Jones would have spanked a prime Joe Calzaghe, and you laughing and telling me that you couldn’t even possibly envisage it, seeing as though Roy only won 1 round like Canelo did, before then getting humiliated just like Canelo did.

It would be like me saying that I truly believe that Roy Jones would have embarrassed Glen Johnson in his prime, and you laughing, saying that when they met, Glen bullied Roy for 9 rounds before knocking him cold.

What’s the difference?

The difference is: You are changing the equations.

Joe Calzaghe wouldn’t even fight Roy in his prime. That’s what happened in real time. But if you humour me for the sake of the debate and we pretend that they had fought earlier, then I can guarantee you the following:

Whatever the outcome, Joe Calzaghe would not have been as supremely confident as he was in 2008, where he stuck his face in Roy’s gloves and stuck out his tongue. Because he’d have been fighting a prime version of Roy, who by his own admission, he doesn’t know whether he was capable of beating, and not the version who he did fight, who he admitted was completely shot.

Now using Roy and Calzaghe is a perfect example to use.

In 2008, you had a super confident and offensive Joe Calzaghe, vs a washed up Roy, who laid on the ropes and covered up, as he was completely out of his depth.

A prime for prime fight, would have given you a completely different fight, as they’d have been completely different versions of themselves, in completely different mindsets.

A prime, ego driven, P4P King in Roy, vs a much more cautious and less confident version of Calzaghe.

Now it’s the exact same scenario with Floyd and Canelo.

In 2013, Floyd forced Canelo to weigh 152 pounds. Floyd faced a very good fighter, but one who was inexperienced at the highest level. Floyd went into the fight super confident. And during the fight, he was also super confident, where he was very offensive minded, where he claimed the centre of the ring, which saw him pot shot Canelo with lead right hands. And he faced a very cautious Canelo who wouldn’t press or pressure him.

Now fast forward to 2021. Now obviously such a fight between them wouldn’t even be sanctioned. But again, you can humour me for the sake of the debate.

Now considering what we know about Floyd, and the fact that he wouldn’t even fight Canelo at 154 pounds, on what planet would he even entertain trying to pot shot an elite level SMW in the centre of the ring??

IF it was possible to make this fight, Floyd would be nowhere near as offensive and as confident as he was in 2013. Because today in 2021, he wouldn’t be facing a naive 23 year old guy who’d weighed in at 152 pounds. Today, he’d be fighting a 30 year old tank in Canelo, who’d weighed in at 168 pounds, full of muscle, who has been breaking bones and knocking out legitimate SMW’s and a LHW. Floyd would not have fought offensively against today’s version of Canelo. It baffles me how you can’t see this.

Now look from Canelo’s point of view:

In 2013, he stood off of 150 pound fighter, where he was overly cautious and defensive.

Today’s version of Canelo would never stand off of any 150 pound fighter. Today’s SMW version of Canelo would walk down any 150 pound fighter, no matter how great he was, even if he had to take 10 shots to land just 2. He’d back the 150 pound fighter up, whoever that may be, and he trap him and hit him with power shots, not even being concerned if he missed 70% of them.

It would look like GGG vs Brook.

I’m not talking here about today’s version of Canelo hypothetically rematching Floyd at 152-154 pounds.

I’m talking here about a 150 pound Floyd, vs today’s SMW version of Canelo, who’d weigh in as a fully fledged SMW.

Although I can’t guarantee the exact outcome, I could guarantee you the following:

You’d have had a less confident, less aggressive and more defensive version of Floyd, vs a supremely confident, more aggressive, much more powerful version of Canelo, who’d got knockouts on his resume of opponents who were 3-4 weights higher.

So I guarantee you that that would have given you a completely different outcome, just like a prime for prime fight between Roy Jones and Joe Calzaghe. It doesn’t matter what happened in 2013. The completely different versions of both guys, would give us a completely different fight altogether.

It doesn’t matter if Canelo had issues with Plant. Plant was a fellow SMW who fought Canelo in a way that Floyd wouldn’t have. You need to stop envisaging their 2013 fight and look at things realistically. Yes, of course Floyd is levels above Plant on a P4P basis. But again, that’s irrelevant here. This SMW version of Canelo would have had zero respect for a 150 pound guy, where he’d have just walked them down. You’re looking at this all wrong. You’re thinking of how Plant troubled Canelo offensively, and then thinking how much better than Plant Floyd was. But again, Floyd would not have fought today’s version of Canelo offensively like how Plant did, and how he himself did 8 years ago. Again, he wouldn’t have had the confidence to, and again, Canelo wouldn’t have let him.

Regarding Maidana, Floyd fought him the following year after his masterclass against Canelo. It was just a completely different stylistic match up, just like how a rematch between Floyd and Canelo would be.

It’s not about that. That’s a different argument altogether. What I’m saying, is that if today’s SMW version of Canelo who fought Plant, fought the version of Lara who he fought years ago, it would be a completely different fight altogether.

A LMW vs a LMW, is a different fight to a LMW vs a SMW.

You know this.

Yes, Kovalev was shot. But the point is, today’s version of Canelo has the power, confidence and aggression needed to knock out LHW’s and SMW’s.

Do you seriously believe that a guy who’s in his prime, who’s capable of knocking out ANY version of Sergei Kovalev, would stand off of 36 year old, 150 pound fighter like he did over 8 years ago?

You’re kidding yourself.

He would walk Floyd down.

I’m not even a fan of Canelo. I’m just telling you that a fight between Canelo and Floyd today, would not play out in the same manner as 2013, as again, you’d have 2 completely different versions of each fighter facing each other.

 

Of course it would be.

An aggressive fully fledged SMW vs a 150 pound guy?

 

The Floyd of then would struggle to deal with the way canelo comes forward these days. That defensive counter punch style would get backed up and don't believe that Floyd would have the power to make much of a dent in the canelo we see today. There is a reason FM fought him at such an early stage of his career. The canelo we are watching now is so well rounded wouldn't call it a walk over but I know where I'd place my bet

 

In 2013, Canelo weighed in at 152 pounds and rehydrated up to the weight of a SMW.

That is NOT the same as where he’s now weighing-in as a fully fledged SMW, with a lot more body mass.

The difference in Canelo’s physique at JMW to today is completely different.

Why don’t you do a comparison.

They don’t even look remotely the same.

Today’s version of Canelo is huge and powerful.

The mere thought of a 2013 version of Canelo knocking out SMW’s and LHW’s is laughable.

If I told you back in 2013 that he could go on and do that, you’d have had me in a straight jacket.

Today’s Canelo is a different fighter altogether.

We’re not just comparing weights. We’re comparing actual muscle mass, strength and power.

Stop trying to pretend that fighting someone who weighs above 160 on fight night, is the same as someone fighting a fully fledged SMW-LHW.

Get real.

Guys like Spence and Brook can weigh as much as a MW and above on fight night. But it doesn’t mean they’re MW’s-SMW’s does it.

They’re still WW’s.

Once again, I don’t care what Canelo threw against Plant.

I’m simply telling you that a fully fledged, powerful SMW-LHW, who has knocked out legitimate SMW’s and a LHW, would fight aggressively against a 150 pound fighter.

Let me know when this sinks in.

Nobody cares about the punch stats at their own weights.

A SMW isn’t going to let a 150 pound guy take the centre of the ring where they stand off of him.

Have a word with yourself.

There’s many WW’s and JMW’s that can eclipse Canelo’s punch stats. But it doesn’t mean that they’d beat him in a H2H fight, if he could weigh in as a SMW.

By your logic, Manny could have beaten today’s SMW version of Canelo.

Now get back in the real world and ask yourself how confident a guy like Floyd would be at 150 pounds, fighting today’s SMW version of Canelo.

How confident would he realistically be?

How offensive minded would he be?

Today’s SMW Canelo who’s knocked out Smith, Plant, BJS and Kovalev etc, wouldn’t stand off of him like he did back in 2013.

He’d walk Floyd down.

He’d put Floyd on the defensive and back him up.

Floyd could not pot shot him like he did back then.

Again, I’m not saying that Canelo is a very aggressive fighter who throws tons of shots.

I’m simply telling you that he’d be aggressive if he faced the version of Floyd who’d he’d fought over 8 years ago.

If you don’t understand that, I’m at a complete loss.

I’m not talking about in general, I’m talking for a specific fight against Floyd.

You’ve got to be crazy to think that Floyd could replicate the performance of 2013 against the specific version of Canelo who fought Plant on Saturday.

 

You are the one who’s delusional.

Again, Canelo weighing in at 165 on fight night, is NOT the same as today’s SMW version of him.

Stop being silly.

Today’s version of Canelo is huge. He has huge muscle mass. He’s significantly stronger and more powerful.

He’s knocking out SMW’s and LHW’s and he’s breaking bones.

Today’s version of Canelo doesn’t even resemble the version who fought Floyd, who dehydrated to 152 pounds, before then rehydrating by a significant amount.

If you can’t see the startling differences between the 2 different versions of Canelo, then I haven’t even got the patience to carry on debating with you.

It’s like claiming that in 2016, GGG fought a SMW in Kell Brook. That’s how dumb your logic is.

A WW weighing above 160 on fight night doesn’t make him a MW-SMW. He’s still a WW.

The very definition of being deluded, would be to believe that a 36 year old, 150 pound Floyd, would school today’s SMW version of Canelo who’s knocked out the likes of Kovalev etc.

You’re living in a fantasy.

Floyd beating today’s matured version of Canelo, where they both weighed in at JMW or below, is certainly plausible.

Floyd beating the specific SMW version of Canelo who fought Plant on Saturday night, isn’t.

 

@Loudon is winning this one on volume punching alone.

 

Just to add:

Like Ricdog has mentioned, punch stats and aggression aren’t one of the same.

You can still be aggressive with a low punch output.

 

Exactly.

Skewed logic.

 

This is even worse than what you think.

These guys aren’t even claiming that Floyd could go to SMW and beat today’s Canelo.

They’re saying that the specific 150 pound version of Floyd from 2013, would still school the specific SMW version of Canelo who fought Plant on Saturday.

 

How many more times?

It’s a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT version of Canelo today.

Yes, back in 2013, Canelo didn’t use his weight advantage.

He stood off of Floyd and didn’t press or pressure him.

He let Floyd dictate everything.

He was cautious.

He was passive.

He gave Floyd too much respect.

Fast toward 8 years plus, and he’s now knocking out SMW’s and LHW’s, looking like a ginger hulk, with a huge muscular and powerful frame.

He’s not a 23 year old young man.

He’s a 30 year old man in his prime, who’s much bigger, stronger and more experienced.

You’ve got to be on LSD to think that the fight would play out the same today.

Of course the added weight would bother Floyd. Today’s Canelo would back him up and walk him down.

You are crazy.

 

Let me ask you two serious, genuine questions please:


1. Why on earth do you believe that TODAY’S Canelo would be as timid??

2. How could Floyd have walked down TODAY’S Canelo??


A guy who’s knocked out Kovalev would not be timid today against a 150 pound fighter.

A 150 pound fighter would not even try and back up a SMW-LHW who’d knocked out fellow SMW’s and a LHW.


Again, you’d be looking at a completely different fight to the one from 2013.

 

The voice of reason.

These guys are insane.

He’s knocked out Kovalev, yet he’d be timid against a 150 pound Floyd??

 

Of course he’d catch him.

It would be a WW on the defensive, vs a SMW-LHW on the offensive.

He’d walk Floyd down and back him up, throwing power punches.

Something would eventually hit him and hurt him.

 

He means that he’d be more aggressive and back him up.

Floyd would retreat and cover up.

Canelo would hit him whilst he was backed into the corners and trapped on the ropes, just like how De La Hoya and Maidana did.

 

Floyd’s levels above a guy like Plant.

What you’ve got to ask yourself, is:

1. Would Floyd be as offensive as what Plant was against today’s version of Canelo?

2. Would Floyd be as offensive as he was himself back in 2013?