How do you rank these four heavyweights all time?

Holyfield
Frazier


Sonny Liston
Floyd Patterson

 

Liston being rated that highly based on cleaning out a division consisting of Machen, Zora Williams and Patterson rates over Holyfield? It wouldn’t be hard to dominate that lot or have them running scared if you were Evander or Frazier.

How could he really rate over Frazier? Joe beat the best version of Ali (to lose) Quarry, Bonavena and Ellis? Not much splits them honestly expect Frazier beat Muhammad Ali.

It doesn’t stand to reason to have Liston above these guys because he dominated a shallow division or to rate him higher because he has fewer losses when the other guys were fighting good and great competition.

Liston never fought a single “great” heavyweight and won unless you want to include Patterson whom I really love but I couldn’t reasonably call him great on resume alone.

 

Liston has multiple rated contenders he beat that often get overlooked. Frazier and Holyfield supposedly being able to beat all his opponents h2h is speculation. I'm going off of what they actually did in their careers and Liston was more dominant.

I could also easily say Liston beats Ellis and quarry if we're using your criteria of h2h. It's also possible prime Liston without shoulder problems beats 70's Ali who had less foot speed, stamina, and reflexes.

Liston was frozen out of the title and also had his career disrupted by jail sentences, being black balled by certain states like NY, etc. Some managers refused to work with Liston, notably Cus D Amato and apparently even Frazier's management who didn't want him fighting Liston. In other words, his reign could have been even longer.

As for Holyfield, he had a yo yo career. He'd have stretches where he looked great such as after winning the title, then he'd have constant ups and downs like when he looked horrible against Bowe and Moorer, bounced back to beat Tyson, then looked like crap again post Lewis. His career was all over the place and other than the early 90's he was never truly dominant.

Patterson was not only a great win for Liston as he was up to that point the only 2x champion, but he had the most one sided victory over a lineal champion and he did it twice. I already acknowledged Frazier's signature win over Ali was slightly ahead, but Liston had a more dominant reign imo. The wins over Patterson aged well as he went on to do great things after he lost.

 

Liston was more dominant over guys who just weren't that great that isn't a point in his favour the "eye test" isn't enough. What they actually did in there careers is what leads me to believe Evander no doubt was better. Yes while you can say Sonny could beat Frazier's comp the Quarry's and Jimmy's ect it doesn't matter I am not disputing that in fact I made a 1-1 comparison of the quality of opposition between the two the difference that splits them is that Frazier actually beat one of the best ever in the best version of Ali to lose you can speculate that Liston could do it but he didn't Frazier did and that is what defines his resume, putting him above Sonny.

Frazier also while not important absolutely in a similar situation as Liston dominated on his way to the top you can't say that anyone Liston beat was better then Ali and you can't use other people ducking him as a point in his favour he beat all the guy's he could all the best of them available and they still weren't that good the reason Frazier never fought Liston has everything to do with what happened in the sideshow that was Ali-Liston I and II as well as the inherent risk-reward but this is not about what could have been this about what they did that is what matters and what happened is Liston was beaten by the best guy he fought he beat Machen, Zora, Williams and Patterson who just aren't enough to overtake Fraziers win over Ali and the contenders he fought.

Evander not dominating the 90s is because there is a massive gulf in competition compared to Sonny's times. Where is the shame losing to Bowe or Moorer? both were lineal heavyweight champions and he redeemed himself against both even though he lost to Bowe in the trilogy he still showed he was on that level in all three fights.

If you want to excuse Sonny for his shoulder problems against Ali couldn't I just say Evander's heart was bad against Moore? I don't see the reasoning that would lead you to think because Sonny beating up on second rate (In the grand scheme of things) contenders and stopping Patterson overtakes Evanders resume which consisted of Tyson, Bowe, Old George, Stewart, Moorer, Ruiz, Nikolia Valuev*, Oquendo, Rahman, Bean, Mercer, Old Holmes, Cooper, Douglas, Dokes, Qawi and that's only the wins, I am probably forgetting some because his resume is so deep.

Some of these came at times when Liston was getting KO'd by Leotis or when most guy's were done in boxing all together he has much, much, much more impressive highs a much better showing in his losses and easily some of the best longevity in recent memory at HW.
Evander fought a murderers row of guys he dominated some rebounded against others hung tough as an old man against young lions.

Patterson is a good win it just isn't a great one which is why Smokin Joe>Sonny Liston. His reign was also a win over Floyd and a loss against Ali? Your reasoning seems to rest entirely on Listons dominant performances and enigma rather then the content of his resume and to circle back on Evander's Yo-Yoing it sounds a lot like Ali to me would you rate Rocky over Ali? Because your logic implies you would.

 

So all the above input should make it very clear now for your list ahem.....

 

You could make an argument for Hoylfield. He has some amazing wins. But if you include losses or crappy performances his overall ranking suffers a bit.

Liston was avoided for years similar to Spence and Golovkin. He also had jail stints, was clearly older than he said he was, was black balled, and might have been pressured to throw at least one of the Ali fights. With all that being said it's extremely impressive what he did despite the road blocks.

If one signature win is enough to out Frazier above Liston then how about buster Douglas? Is he the goat? That's why i said "overall" record.

Frazier's management not wanting him to face Liston is irrelevant if you're going to criticize his resume lacking a lot of big names who pass the eye test. He was black balled and avoided by many fighters and he beat almost everyone they put in front of him. Cooper and Johansson openly ducked him! Doesn't mean he'd definitely beat all these guys but it's a factor.

I wasn't suggesting all of Hoylfield's losses were shameful. Bowe was a very formidable opponent and Moorer was a decent heavyweight as well. But he also has less forgivable losses to guys like Toney and Byrd and also went life and death with a guy like Cooper. The point is he was inconsistent both at the elite level and at mid level. He had a very competitive era, true, but but his career was all over the place. Tyson, Lewis, and Bowe fought in the same era and they don't have nearly as many losses or ugly performances as him so that's less of an excuse.

Yes Hoylfield hung on longer than others at an advanced age but like I said, he had a very yo yo career both in his prime and past it. For the record, Liston hurt Martin so bad despite losing he literally ended his career when he was about 37,000 years old.

Ali is over rocky for dominating despite being in a very competitive era. He lost many precious years of his prime unlike Rocky who retired at 32 I think? Ali was beating Foreman in the rumble of the jungle.

 

Liston
Frazier
Holyfield
Patterson

 

High as in head to head or accomplishments. How about a mix of both? They are close.

Liston
Holyfield
Frazier
Patterson

 

And mine.

 

1 Liston
2 Frazier
3 Holyfield
4 Patterson

 

This is my ranking too

 

It's between Frazier and Holyfield. (Liston and Patterson would be #3 and #4 respectively.)

Frazier doesn't have all the embarrassing losses against guys like Byrd and Donald and Toney. You could argue Holyfield didn't win any of the three Bowe fights (Bowe outthrew and outlanded by 100 punches in the rematch).

Holyfield's big win is really the first Tyson fight. His first reign was considered kind of a joke at the time. Douglas didn't try to win. Two 40-year-old former greats and Bert Cooper. The press was merciless bashing him. The Tyson fights really lifted him up to another level. All of a sudden, people had him in the top five all-time (for a bit). Before it all started coming apart again.

Frazier's career was more steady. Really just lost to two people. But he didn't fight as many names. Had a shorter career. Called it quits maybe too soon at the age of 32. It would've been nice to have seen "Smokin' Joe" against Norton and Young and even Leon and John Tate in 1977-78-79.

Meanwhile, Evander stuck around decades too long. But he added a big win here or there amidst all the terrible losses.

When deciding between two fighters, I personally tend to hold bad losses against a fighter. Evander was originally going to retire at 30. (30 years later, he's still fighting.)

So, I'd probably go Frazier, Holyfield, Liston and Patterson.

 

I find this tough, love Floyd and Moore, Johansson(2) Chuvalo, Quarry (draw), Bonavena, Ellis(in many people's opinion, a win) Cooper, Jackson, Machen were better opposition than been credited here. Longevity too and historical youngest champ, first to regain etc. H2H creeps into the back of the mind so hard to move him up from 4.
Liston does well H2H with me but his resume is pretty thin, Jail time, blackballed, late start, tell against him here. Patterson gave him two great wins, and Folley, Machen, Williams, maybe Clarke were his only signature wins. For the purpose of rating a fighter for what he actually did, Liston suffers.
Frazier blazed a trail early with Bonavena, Chuvalo, Ellis, Mathis, Quarry excellent wins, then of course Ali. Bugner and repeats over Ellis and Quarry add some beef. A bit short but ahead of Sonny IMO and edges Floyd too on quality wins.
Holy has some list of wins, Thomas, Dokes, Bowe, Holmes, Foreman, Tyson(2) Mercer, Moorer, Ruiz, Doughlas and Rahman. Probably matches Joe and the efforts v Lewis were worthy too.
Losses must come into it too and longevity. Holy has the edge on longevity but Floyd was good too, Liston ok and Frazier a bit short. Losses, well Liston lost heavily to Ali in the second and to Martin, the first Ali(Clay) defeat was competitive. I hold the Marshall loss against Sonny a bit, he had just defeated the decent Summerfield but in fairness, the Martin defeat should be discounted. Frazier just lost to Ali, whom he also beat and badly to Foreman twice. Holy lost to Moorer (avenged) Bowe (1-2 in series), Lewis(and the draw) and then as he aged Ruiz, Toney and Donald losses hit his record, after that his other defeats should be dismissed and there is a decent losing attempt versus Valuev. Patterson had half of his 8 losses to Liston and Ali, the other 4 to Maxim and Ellis were disputed and Johansson was twice avenged while he drew with Quarry and the loss was close too.
I have them incredibly close on resumee;
Frazier,
Holy,
Liston/Patterson I cant split.
H2H;
Liston,
Frazier,
Holy,
Patterson.

 

It seems like you didn't understand a lot of what I am saying. Maybe re-read my post?

I said ducking is a non factor we are evaluiating there resumes and actual performances.

No Douglas isn't the GOAT because we have context. Let's also not kid ourselves with that example Frazier wasn't Buster he was consistently dominating till that point and just has a better resume because of Ali AND the contenders he beat. I am sure many here would agree Quarry is better then any contender that Sonny beat on top of my point.

Less forgivable losses to Byrd and Toney? He was beyond done at that point he should have been finished and everyone wanted him retired he wasn't remotely close to his former self yet you want to excuse Sonny for losing to Leotis? C'mon man. Life and death with Cooper? Have you seen the fight? He got rocked by a very powerful guy rallied back and took his head off hardly life and death it also doesn't define him it's like saying Louis wen't life and death with Galento?

His career wasn't all over the place at his best he lost to Bowe and Moorer in one of those fights he was said to have had a heart condition or are we going to not mention that because of Sonny's shoulder? If we don't go down that route Moorer was an elite level southpaw who held the lineal title and let's not forget the rematch. A good fighter struggles at the highest level sometimes- they can't all have the benefit of having a Floyd Patterson or a Williams to bulldoze

 

Liston destroyed Patterson twice. A pre prime Liston lost a decision which was avenged, then a 30 something Liston lost to Martin. In between are the fishy Ali fight and Ali definitely believed the second one was fixed, " Get up he up yelled to Liston no one will believe this " this. The other fights were all Liston All 50 or them.