If Carnera beat Ali, what evidence would you need to decide it was legit?

The impossible happens.

Carnera soundly outboxes, out-fights, and out-mauls a prime Ali. The result is even more lopsided than Frazier's FOTC victory. Furthermore, Ali wasn't sick, injured, or otherwise unwell. Carnera just straight up beat prime Ali.

Now, now. I know what you're thinking. No jokes. I realize it's very silly, but work with me here.

What is the *minimum* amount of evidence you would demand to see that the fight was on the level? How much proof would you need before you'd be willing to accept that Primo beat Ali fair and square?

 

The impossible is right!

 

I don't disagree.

But I indulge me a bit.

 

If there was no credible evidence that it was not on the level, then I would assume that it was on the level.

Let's say, no irregular betting pattern emerges, and nobody testifies under oath.

Also, I would find it highly unlikely, that Ali would throw a fight, by losing a decision.

The obvious conclusion, would be that we had all been wrong about Carnera.

Even myself, would have been too timid in arguing his case.

 

Frankly, this is a ridiculous question.

The evidence of your eyes should be enough, all else being equal.

Unless you think that Ali is some sort of invincible God?

A better question would be "what evidence would you need to see, to think that the fight was fixed?"

 

Maybe if Ali had a really bad case of the flu and a high fever, then I could believe it.

 

Just curious, fixes work both ways, what fight did he throw?

 

Okay. I'll bite. I'll assume that we're talking about the Carnera who beat Sharkey or Loughran, and Primo is in his prime in 1967. And the Ali who beat Folley is still in his. If Ali was not sick, injured, or otherwise unwell, then still a fix would have to be proven to me for me to believe it...even though I believe Ali to be the far superior fighter. If no proof was forthcoming, I'd accept that Carnera mauled him fair and square

So, of course, I'd try to figure out what happened. Perhaps Ali, though in his prime years, neglected to train for the fight, worried about his legal situation. Maybe he took Carnera as many do, as a joke, who he could easily beat untrained. Perhaps he even had a nickname for Primo, early on: "Bozo The Giant Clown." Maybe this angered Primo just enough that he decided there just might be a way for him to humiliate Ali some. Out muscle him, throw him around. That way, even if he lost, he could make Ali look foolish at times. Carnera may have thought: "We'll see who the clown is." Interestingly, for whatever reason, Ali starts to look disinterested in the fight as it gets close. That seems to carry over to the opening bell. So Primo goes in there and throws Ali around like a rag doll early on, and, incredibly, the referee allows it. (We've all seen referees allow crazier things.) Later, Carnera starts outboxing Ali, using his superior reach. Ali still thinks he did enough to win, as he suddenly seems to wake up and comes on late, but Primo takes everything Ali hits him with, and even throws Ali down on the floor a couple times, which FINALLY draws at least a warning from the referee.

Carnera wins the Unanimous Decision by a surprisingly wide margin, and becomes Lineal Champion of the World. Ali wants a rematch, and Primo is willing, for a huge payday, but the powers that be are not cooperative on Ali's legal problems, and his license to box is suspended in all states. Foreign governments follow suit.

I'd chalk it up then as one of those weird things that sometimes happens in boxing. The boxers are human, after all, and for whatever reasons, Primo Carnera beat Muhammad Ali that day.

 

Very well done!

 

I'll say, after watching the fight and Primo winning,.. Am I still recovering from those bad mushrooms back in 85???

 

Carnera in the ring seconded by Broadway Bill Duffy, Walter Good Time Charley Friedman ,and Big Frenchy DeMange,does it for me, unless conclusive evidence to the contrary was produced ,I would assume it was a fixed fight.
Betting patterns BTW do not always indicate anything.Fixed fights are not always about betting coups they can be solely about getting control of a title, in which case the perpetrators could very well be willing to take a temporary cash loss to get said control.

 

It might be possibe, and I like Djanders' scenario. Something outside the ring influences how Ali fights within the ring. He either shows up undertrained and disinterested or he shows up angry and wanting to 'take it to Primo' to show him who's boss.

During the fight he becomes distracted or reckless early on and walks into a big punch. A unit like Carnera can generate a lot of power even if his technique in general didn't suggest it. Ali drags himself to his feet and now his right eye is swelling rapidly like a balloon. Carnera either blows him away on the spot or targets that side of the face with his decent jab, worsening the eye until the referee stops it. Hospital verdict: broken orbital.

Likely? Not very.

Possible? Hell, yes, that's boxing.

 

Your logic is entirely back to front there.

The default assumption would be that the fight was on the level, and the onus would be on those alleging the contrary to prove their case.

An outcome being unexpected, is not in and of itself reasonable grounds for suspicion.

If it was then every upset in history would be viewed as a potential fix.

 

Of all posters you are not the one to give lectures on logic!

 

Let me put it this way.

If I assert that there is an elephant walking down Oxford Street, the onus is not on you to prove that there isn't.