You didn't post stats, you posted an edited clip cherry picking some moments when he looked good defensively. If you're referring to the stats you always reference other posters have already pointed out the flaws in them since if I recall correctly they include fights for Tyson and Frazier when they were way past their prime. When I posted a break down of Louis vs Rocky you just ignored it and said you disagreed without telling me how my break down was wrong, that's emotion. When i referenced trainers, fighters, and other posters cosigning what I wrote and you just completely dismissed it, that's an emotional response. In other words you're projecting. I suggest you look it up. We have nothing further to discuss until I do my own break down because it's like talking to a brick wall. Imagine being more annoying to talk to than choklab.
Larry was not some all time puncher. The potency of Holmes punches do not satisfy fans who link power to the size of bigger men than Marciano. So I am not sure even size lovers can really argue about size being key among somebody who won’t hit any harder than guys Rocky beat. Tyson was a million times more conventional yes. But a million times better? A million? One guy dominates one era, cleans it out and he is a million times worse than another “all time” great fighter? Not sure that really ever stands up. A million? what do you think “all time” means? he was a darn sight faster than 1978 version of Ken Norton who almost beat Larry. Marcianos technique was not poor. It was far from conventional. But it worked an absolute treat against the best fighters of his day, among whom stand up very well against Larry Holmes challengers. Who among Larrys challengers would you say beat old Louis, champ Walcott and logical contender Archie Moore?
Walcott said Marciano was easy to hit but hard to get at with effective punches. Louis said "the boy hits hard and is hard to hit" Charles said Marciano looked easy to hit from outside the ring but it was completely different story inside the ring. Moore mentioned how he knew a while before getting Rocky in the ring that Rocky was open to one of his special right hand punches, but that what he couldn't see was that HE (Moore) couldn't land that particular punch without being open himself to Rocky's OWN unorthodox left ! (I believe I read all three quotes in books by Skehan and Sullivan, maybe elsewhere) Marciano doesn't get enough credit for this, IMO. Lesser opponents became reluctant to commit to their shots because retaliation was swift and the ones that land rarely landed clean enough to pause Rocky even momentarily. Rocky walked through grazing shots and "scoring" "shoe shiner" flurries in a way that actually made it seem no advantage to have had hit him. His better opponents were all brought in to Rocky's fight plan eventually too. No one could really stop him rolling forward, on the rare occasions he was caught clean and hurt he retaliated and brought the fight back on his terms again. If Rocky had "no defense" he woulda been easy pickings for Moore and Charles, and an old Joe Louis. This was from a post years ago. But it shows statements from people who were in the ring with him. And the way you broke it down in this comment is fairer then just saying he had bad defense. Although I’d disagree about him being easy to hit a power punches. No one could be hw champ and easily be hit with punches and never get knocked out
After their fight Louis called Marciano just a street brawler the quote can be found in his autobiography.
Did it ever occur to you that perhaps the fighters you're mentioning were frustrated because Rocky never gave them a chance to breath? It was like fighting inside a blender. Rocky kept hitting even if you blocked or dodged. He would hit you on the arms or shoulders to soften you up, along with a few fouls here and there to apply mom stop pressure until the guys guard came down. The boxers you reference such as Moore, Louis, Charles etc liked to have enough space to set up their punches. They were boxer punchers and preferred mid range. If you have an iron chinend, hard punching opponent who constantly presses in and never lets you breath (taking away your preferred range) OF COURSE you're going to have a hard time landing more than one punch. Now factor in their age and diminished reflexes and it's now wonder Rocky wore them down. It's also a fact there weren't a lot of big hard hitting Liston or Foreman types who could frame him or push him back or tall fast technicians like holmes who could force him to slow down his pace. For the most part, Rocky benefited from very good match making and opponents who often didn't have the tools and style to neutralize his rough style. Never said Rocky literally had "no defense" only that it was mediocre at times. For a swarmer he had decent defense but never as polished as prime Frazier for instance. Until he ran into Foreman, Frazier was not getting tagged a lot by multiple flush shots in a row, his bob and weave prevented that. There was nobody remotely similar to Foreman on Rocky's record, or holmes/Ali for that matter. The boxers you mention who were reluctant to throw follow up shots, that certainly doesn't apply to holmes. He could throw 2 uppercuts in a row or frame you with a stiff arm and then throw multiple right hands in a row. He could clinch and reset or redirect rocky like matador. Not sure what you're not getting here. His height, reach, and speed would be a huge problem.
I was not implying Holmes is an all time puncher. My point was since he was taller and with a longer reach, he's more safe from Marciano's punches, and he can use his jab from a safer distance and reach longer with it. "A million" is a figure of speech, it just means way better. You are not supposed to take it literally. Their speed seems similar to me, but even if he was faster, Ken had other assets, that's why he troubled Larry more. Compared to other ATG's, Marciano's technique is very poor. Witherspoon, Spinks and Norton definitely do. Not so sure about the rest. Berbick might beat some too. Even someone as limited as Shavers might win one.
Whose stamina should prove superior men 38,37,and 41 ,or a man in his prime? Many of Rocky's opponents named others as harder hitting, Lastarza,Cockell,Moore, and Charles, for a start. It was the fact that he could keep throwing , due to his excellent conditioning which of course would be emphasized when the older men began to feel the pace .
I don’t disagree with what you wrote here. He wouldn’t do well against Foreman or Lewis imo may have trouble w Liston too. But Holmes can’t hit like they did. He also fought a good prime mover in Lastarza. May not be the best but he was a good fighter w good fundamentals whom Marciano broke down. I never saw anyone tag Marciano w uppercuts. Marcianos crouch and lean style made him far less susceptible to them then the head first Bob and weave Frazier and Tyson. Different styles.
what are you implying here? The world champion was cherry picked for Rocky to beat? The best, most outstanding and logical challenger that year was also cherry picked for Rocky to beat? I’m hoping I have misunderstood this use of cherry picked. Maybe I read that wrong? Marciano never got nailed as much as He nailed his opponent. He never received more than he dished out. That’s how he won the fights. He outlanded all of his opponents. And yes, he did retire before the tide turned on him, but thems the facts. Nobody hit Rocky more times than he hit them.
