What's your Opinion Of Sugar Ray Leonard?

Sugar Ray is a complicated man and does divide opinions.

I think he was very talented although I was a far bigger fan of Hagler Hearns and Duran so was not keen on him at the time as he came accross as being fake with the nice guy persona.

His tactical acumen really started the more recent era of "A side" bollocks that we have today with retirements and cherry picking which I am not a fan of .

Remembering Sugar was the biggest star after Ali retired and was well known around the world at the time as fights were on normal TV the elite were household names back then.

I don't mind him these days and on a talent level he was pretty special getting results against the other three even if a couple of those are questionable. I think he gets a little overated considering his contempories had a lot more fights.

The history books only ever show the results so younger people who weren't there will never fully get the context of the time.

Certainly an ATG possibly top 5 alltime at 147. Had all key attributes of will to win. boxing and ring IQ .speed power. combination punching and shot selection. solid chin.

 

Hearns beat Hill because stylistically Hill wasn't the type of fighter that he struggled against even as he declined. Steward himself is on record as saying the thing Hearns struggled with as his legs went were big strong guys who could pressure him. This wasn't Virgil that's for sure as Hearns kept him at bay with his fantastic jab and the threat of the booming right hand. Hearns himself said he virtually won the fight with his jab. Sure there were more skills put forward than that but Hill couldn't put any pressure on him at all and hence the result.

Did you know Hearns and Steward split a bit before the Hill bout because Steward wanted him to retire as he was so far declined? Steward of all people would know but it was backed up by multiple struggles too. Despite all this Steward still picked the underdog Hearns on the day of the fight saying something like Hill was too much of a amateur compared to Tommy.

There's a reason Hearns was a sizable underdog against both SRL and Hill, even after he drew Leonard. He was over the hill and i can provide a lot more documentation on that than you will find on Hagler. He went life and death with Roldan, got stopped by Barkley and then went life and death with James Kinchen. The glory days were well behind him and there are dozens of articles from Barkley on proclaiming just that.

 

It isn't proof of anything because -

1. Donny wasn't that good.
2. Donny may have struggled with the catchweight.

Semantics but did he really legitimately stop a 175 pound titleist when said titleist had to weigh in 7 pounds lighter than his actual division?

 

I think although it was known that Hagler had lost a step or two in absolute terms as MW Champ, once the Leonard fight was signed, that was forgotten or became less important with Hagler’s viability really only mattering relative to Leonard’s specifically perceived chances against him.

The odds favouring Hagler I feel were more about assuming Leonard’s disadvantages in respect of extreme inactivity and moving up in weight. The odds were proportionally defied by Leonard’s own unexpected return to the best part of his pre retirement form.

Had Leonard’s ability to recover himself been somehow magically known before the fight, perhaps there would’ve been more accent on and discussion of Hagler’s own deteriorations as being a potential factor. If Hagler had instead been preparing to meet his most viable, legit MW challenger as at the time, his own deteriorations might’ve been more realistically addressed.

Ray’s specifications for ring size, glove size and duration were one thing, perhaps in themselves warranting an asterisk.

However, Marv’s frittering away of at least the first 3 rds and then discovering even more slippage within himself during the course of the fight, when he tried to put the pedal to the metal, were another thing again.

By way of pre fight agreement, Marv willingly gave away the most crucial and beneficial rds for himself, the championship backend - rds 13, 14 & 15. But to then give away the first 3 rds of a fight already reduced down to 12 rds was insane or just a sign of plain stupidity. .

Such folly could’ve only meant that Marv must’ve literally felt he could beat Ray at any point in the fight he saw fit, even with one arm tied behind his back - and I think, at the time, a good number of pundits thought the same.

Imagine how Marv felt when he might’ve felt enough is enough and decided to step it up and end matters only to find out exactly how much more he had lost of his former self.

 

He didn't struggle with the catchweight. It was common knowledge at the time he could make 168. That was never in doubt. He and Murray Sutherland of Scotland were known as 2 guys that were perfect for supermiddleweight.

 

Well he claims it affected him but in a different way to expectations.


Even though Lalonde had campaigned at super-middleweight before, the weight cut looked a cynical but crucial advantage for Leonard as he made the bigger man boil his body down to 168lbs. But, for Lalonde, it was the preparations for the fight that proved the crucial factor.

“It did affect me because people in my camp didn’t understand,” Lalonde told Boxing Social. “I felt very confident I could make the weight. But they were all very concerned, so we had different philosophies on what training we should be doing and, in my opinion, I over-trained for that fight.

“I sparred way too many rounds. I came in at 163, but I weighed in at 167 because I had my clothes on and stuff in my pockets. But I was 163, which was 30lbs less than what I weighed when I first went into my training camp. I was like 156lbs the next day, I was so weak. It did affect me, but, in my opinion, it was the fight I fought that cost me the [win]. It wasn’t the weight or the politics that cost me, it was what we did in the training camp. I made my mistakes in the camp and in the ring.”

https://boxing-social.com/features/donny-lalonde-recalls-sugar-ray-war/

 

If you are right, and I dont think so, thank you for proving my point about Hill being overrated. Imagine what prime Michael Spinks would have done to any version of overrated Hill. Think about that. A shot Hearns completely outboxed a prime Hill. Upon talking about stylistic matchups which you did when talking about Hill, rugged types that are naturally bigger than Tommy, are hard punchers and have decent whiskers like Roldan, Barkley, and of course, the Hearns version of Hagler are always going to give Tommy a hard time. I shudder to think what Dwight Qawi would have done to him. And if what you're saying about Tommy being done is right, then what does say about his whole supermiddleweight, lightheavyweight and cruiserweight careers and belts? And if Steward knew Tommy was shot, what does that say about him by training Tommy during his shot years?

 

That doesnt bolster your argument John. 163 is still 5 pounds below the supermiddle limit and only 3 pounds above MIDDLE as well as closer to middle than super. And LaLonde making the excuse he overtrained sounds like a Duran excuse and I am a Duran fan. If he made it down to almost middle because he overtrained then 168 does not seem like a problem.

 

Firstly let it be said that i never once mentioned the word "shot". "Over the hill" may have even been mildly too strong but shot isn't even in the conversation. He was significantly declined from his best.

I'm not sure Hill is overrated as I've never overly seen him "rated". I've seen some say he was underrated if anything but no-one is saying he's some sort of ATG or close to it that i know of. Some believe he got better post Hearns and he didn't actually lose for another 6 years.

He's somewhere between the good to very good range in most eyes i think.

Regarding Spinks and Hill i have never seen anyone under any illusion that Spinks wouldn't walk all over him. There's no need to think about it because it's a no-brainer. completely different class of fighter.

You seem to think i have some sort of affinity for Hill (because Hearns beat him and you see Hearns as a fave of mine?) and think he is some sort of top quality fighter. I don't.

Qawi would have near killed the guy. Why would he not? Hearns won his first world title at 147. What 147 pound titlist would you favor to not get hammered by Qawi? Qawi was a beast who fought at an ATG level. Qawi would put a whooping on Hagler and Monzon as well rest assured.

Hearns is hardly rated as a top 10 ATG at 175. As a matter of fact he isn't top 50.

I'm not sure what you want me to say Clint. What does it say mate? He never beat anyone amazing at 168, he beat a good and good-very good guy at 175 and he beat some OK cruisers. That he could beat these guys when fading to worse says he was a pretty darn good fighter.

Shot doesn't belong. Steward showed great concern and compassion for a guy that could still win world titles despite being declined. Steward's timing was excellent as Hearns got his 160 strap and also got that long awaited rematch with SRL. He was never retiring while Leonard was out there.

Holmes was way past his best and fighting for many more years. Have a look at Ali. Have a look at Leonard. That's boxing. That Steward actually got in Hearns ear and was willing to split up with him at that earlier point tells me Steward was a fine man. Of course they did eventually make up and get back together.

Steward changed and saved a lot of lives.

 

Ok lets call it an excuse and go back to #1

1. Donny wasn't that good.

Lets also remember that Donny gave Leonard problems and actually sat him down. Beating Donny doesn't prove Leonard had a lot left.

 

Then what does that say about Leonard's choices post Hagler? Is Leonard a cherrypicker like Surf said?

 

Yes John, you wrote here that Tommy was "considered almost, if not shot."

 

Almost then. His legs were bad comparative to his best.

 

Yes. You did mention shot.

 

How much does it matter really? They all cherry pick here and there. Was Holmes cherry picking when he blanket refused to fight the highest rated guys in the last few years of his reign? Was Ali cherry picking with Leon Spinks? Was Frazier cherry picking post Ali? The list is endless.

Was Leonard cherry picking when fighting prime Benitez and Hearns? Hagler hadn't lost for a decade and had still been winning. Leonard was a big underdog. Leonard beat Hagler. I'd hardly call taking on a guy like Hagler even at this stage any sort of safe task for a busy quality fighter let alone an ex welterweight who hadn't even fought in years.

Lalonde was a title chase for sure. So what in the big scheme of things tho.