Tommy Morrison vs. Joe Louis

It's not about who he beat, that has little relevance to me, it's about how he looks on film. You have eyes too, can't you see he how superior he is to Louis ?!?
He has all the tool Louis had, and at the same time, he moved a million times better. Can't you see how fluid SRR looks in comparison to Louis ?!

 

When people criticize Max Baer, they usually point to specific things that he did wrong. Of which there are tons.

When they criticize Louis, it seems to me that the criticism gets all vague. I rarely see clarification, either. It's "movement" or "fluidity" or an admonition to look at the film. I've even posted copies of USA Boxing's official manual, hoping to move the conversation into specifics. Or film analysis. Anything.

The only specific thing I've seen mentioned is Louis's slow feet, which he did deliberately to conserve energy and encourage his opponent to fire prematurely. (Louis's critics don't even mention the jab dropping thing that primitive old Schmeling noticed.)

I am but a poor and ignorant boxing forum poster. You, by contrast, actually have had a boxing match, according to your vote in the Louis technique poll thread. So have many of the people arguing with you here. So for the benefit of the ignorant masses like me, please describe what specifically Louis did wrong.

 

Like many have already explained, his movement simply isn't good enough.
Sure, he may have moved slow to conserve energy, but a modern boxer will hit him at will. It's not just the slow feet, Louis simply doesn't have good upper body movement also, he's too easy to hit by a modern ATG HW. Someone like Ali would run rings around him and hit him at will.

 

SRR looks great on the tape, so does Louis though. You have eyes that tell you some amateurs and actors were HW champions, I'm not sure you should base everything on your eyes evaluation...

 

What should his footwork and upper body movement look like, from your perspective?

 

Look at a young Ali, Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield etc

 

How is that possible that someone like GGG was so good recently then?
How is Louis movement worse than someone like Bowe, Vitali or Joshua?

Besides, what does ""movement" even mean? It's so general that it basically means nothing.

So you think someone like Riddick Bowe had a better upper body movement than Louis? Can you give some specifics?

 

That is, again, too vague for my purposes. I have seen them. I notice that they are more mobile, but that doesn't immediately scream to me "and therefore Louis is doing something wrong." Not every fighter is as mobile as Ali or young Holmes (including older Holmes!)

Perhaps this will help. Take a clip of Louis. Any one you like. Find some places with timestamps where you can say things like:

"See this? Louis should have weaved here, but he stood straight up like a telephone pole. A switch step ten seconds later would have helped him close the distance instead of missing his punch. Louis needed a deeper step at this other point. Oh, and look there. See how he's off balance and tripping over his feet? His stance is too narrow for the movement he's making there. That's why."

This might help others understand why you are saying his general lack of movement actually, demonstrably handicapped him in real moments of real fights.

 

Then go with it

 

Yes, Bowe moved way better. Can't you people see ?!?? Just look at his fights.
Like Pat M said, most of you old timers fans look at things with rose colored glasses and listen to the exaggerated tales of some clueless boxing writer/historian. I liked Bert Sugar a lot, he was extremely charismatic and loved boxed, but he was ****ing DELUSIONAL at the same time. He believed a small limited boxer like Marciano could beat the Klitschkos. Marciano even crossed his feet as he punched, he stands no chance whatsoever.

 

No, I can't see it. Can you show me examples of Bowe superior movement in similar situations?

So you accuse me of listening to Bert Sugar (which I never did), but you use Pat M as a authority on this subject? Why don't you use your eyes and give us some kind of breakdown of Louis poor movement? If you know so much about boxing, it shouldn't be hard for you.

 

They were both great, and they would have continued being Boxing Miracles in this day and age.

 

I don't think anybody in this thread is saying Louis is better than Robinson. Everyone is in agreement Robinson looks incredible.

The things which made Robinson so dangerous, are also what makes Louis so dangerous. Robinson's blazing hand-speed, one punch power and brilliant mechanics where they used weight, leverage and the stretch shortening cycle to carry on building power rather than losing it. They both had brilliant jabs and stood inside an opponent's reach and countered. These are the fundamentals of Robinson's offense and pretty much corner stones of his entire style. Louis just had less style variety. He was a hunter, and didn't take kindly to backing up - although it's clear watching his earlier fights he could absolutely do so.

Yeah, Robinson had better lateral movement. What of it? The list of people with better movement than Robinson is extremely small. It's no more than ten, and not a single heavyweight is among them. However, there isn't two heavyweights in history at throwing combinations than Louis. There isn't any heavyweight in history better at staying inside an opponent's reach and countering - hence why Louis annihilated taller fighters - and there is no more than one other heavyweight with a better blend of speed and power.

Louis' footwork was not poor, it was economic. This is literally the definition of good footwork. The definition of footwork is to remain able and in range to punch, while being out of position to be hit and accomplishing both by expending as little energy as possible. The first thing transitioning amateurs are told when turning pro is to settle down, to stop unnecessarily moving and wasting energy. Louis exemplifies being efficient, patient and primed to land his shots. The idea Louis' footwork was bad just because he didn't do much of it is unfounded and flat out stupid. Also, go and watch some Louis' early KOs and tell me he was ponderous. The guy went out there and blitzed class fighters. You need quick feet to do that.

His defence was not poor. He routinely used extensive rear-hand parries, slipped straights and rolled under hooks. You can't stay inside punching range, squared up and firing if you don't have a good, EFFICIENT defense and good footwork. He even shoulder rolled Marciano's right hand at one point.

If Louis was so archaic, why is there a fighter who emulates him in every era with success? There is almost always a steady, upright pressure who starts combinations off the jab and thrives on timing the right hand. Ike Williams, Shozo Saijo, Alexis Arguello, Roger Mayweather, Kostya Tsyzu, and even today's Teofimo Lopez. All of their style's core elements go straight back to what Louis did best. None of them succeeded him.

Why does Louis' level of opposition not matter but Robinson's doesn't? Surely being good in a time where you perceive everything to be bad just means he isn't proven. Louis' opposition is often called poor - despite obviously not being so - and so Louis is discredited. Why isn't Robinson? The only reason you're not entertaining anything positive regarding Louis, is because you have a nostalgic love for Robinson. You obviously can't shake the stories and so your normally vexatious fixation on disparaging the older fighter is interrupted and you get this obvious, weird double standard. The same happens with Sonny Liston. It was the same when you were Johnny B.

Take your own advice and use your eyes. Louis was a beast. Morrison was a hype job.

It's that simple.

 

Lad, do you know what you're saying right now? You're literally saying "yeah so even though I'm verifiably wrong because of results in fights that ACTUALLY HAPPENED, I'm right because my eyes tell me so".

Walcott was a sublime technician, no matter the era. A well past his best Louis boxed with Walcott in the first fight and knocked him spark out in the second. Louis was not 'outdated', and if he was, it doesn't matter anywhere near as much as you're making out as it clearly didn't stop him knocking seven shades of **** out of, in your words, the only fighter he fought who was ahead of his time.

Yo @White Bomber come and get your mans he wilin

 

go with what