How good were Joe Louis's skills? (With poll)

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by cross_trainer, Dec 10, 2021.


How good were Louis's technical skills overall by modern standards??

  1. Louis's skills were poor, and I've *never* had a boxing match

    1 vote(s)
    1.9%

  2. Louis's skills were poor, and I've had at least one boxing match

    2 vote(s)
    3.8%

  3. Louis's skills were average, and I've *never* had a boxing match

    1 vote(s)
    1.9%

  4. Louis's skills were average, and I've had at least one boxing match

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%

  5. Louis's skills were very good, and I've *never* had a boxing match

    9 vote(s)
    17.0%

  6. Louis's skills were very good, and I've had at least one boxing match

    2 vote(s)
    3.8%

  7. Louis's skills were incredible, and I've *never* had a boxing match

    17 vote(s)
    32.1%

  8. Louis's skills were incredible, and I've had at least one boxing match.

    21 vote(s)
    39.6%

  9. I voted by accident, so I'm picking this one.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
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  1. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    I've bolded and underlined all the ways that you've just repeated the same vague and general statement in different ways. "Louis looks sloppy" "Joe wasn't smooth" "Joe couldn't move well", "Joe wasn't good" and similar statements are non-answers. They are too vague to get any idea what you're talking about, and are just dressed up variations of "Joe wasn't good."

    I also bolded all the parts where you basically say everybody secretly agrees with you. Those aren't really an argument either. So we will ignore that.

    What we are left with after we cut out the extra stuff are the following 5 statements:

    1) Joe didn't use angles advancing or retreating.

    2) Joe couldn't hit moving people.

    3) Joe looks off balance.

    4) Joe is "tiptoeing." [see note below.]

    5) Joe cannot "block while punching with one arm."

    From previous conversations with you, you apparently consider any time Joe inches close to his opponents with shuffle steps to be "tiptoeing." You don't mean he's literally on his tiptoes. This is a confusing choice of words, but I'll play along.

    I don't know what #5 means. Do you mean that Joe couldn't block with one arm while punching with the other? If so, that's clearly false. Or do you mean he can't simultaneously block and punch with the same arm? I don't think anyone punches with their blocks.

    #1 doesn't specify which angles he should have been using. @George Crowcroft explained that Louis was actually keeping his feet inside his opponent's feet to remain in punching range. He was also cutting off the ring. This is the orientation you'd want as a puncher.

    #2 is false because he actually did hit moving people. Knocked them out, in fact. In the clip I posted, he connects with the moving guy. And "able to hit moving people" is not a specific boxing technique anyway.

    #3, Joe looking off balance, is occasionally true. Nobody's perfect.

    #4, the "tiptoeing," is just another way of saying you don't like Louis conserving energy with his shuffle. So once again it comes down to whether Louis's energy conserving style worked. Most people believe that it did. Louis was rarely tired. In fact, he nixed Conn late despite intentionally weakening and dehydrating himself to avoid looking like a bully. So that style kept him in the game even when he weakened his own body prefight.

    Anyway, I assume @Glass City Cobra, @JohnThomas1, @RulesMakeItInteresting, and the others will concentrate on these five points, since they are the only criticisms of Louis you've made with enough clarity to engage with over the course of a series of threads.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2021
    cross_trainer, Dec 11, 2021
    cross_trainer, Dec 11, 2021
    #76
    70sFan865, Entaowed, Pugguy and 3 others like this.
  2. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    Louis was among the most skilled of heavyweights ever.
     
    mr. magoo, Dec 11, 2021
    mr. magoo, Dec 11, 2021
    #77
    kaapa2, Pugguy, Marvelous Mauler and 2 others like this.
  3. Marvelous Mauler

    Marvelous Mauler New Member Full Member

    34
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    Aug 24, 2021
    Great fkn response. I think you just hit the nail on the coffin. There isn't really any sensible response moneytheman could formulate to come back because he doesn't have any proof except his obviously very reliable and analytical eyes. You guys are taking him in the deep waters by pressuring him to actually prove his claims and it's really great to see that. However I think this is a lost cause since he will just continue to avoid your questions and he will never even consider himself to be wrong nevermind actually admitting it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2021
    Marvelous Mauler, Dec 11, 2021
    Marvelous Mauler, Dec 11, 2021
    #78
    kaapa2, Entaowed, cross_trainer and 1 other person like this.
  4. Pugguy

    Pugguy Ingo, The Thinking Man’s GOAT Full Member

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    Aug 22, 2021
    Money, that’s not a breakdown .

    The only “breakdowns” you’re giving are to those who, against all hope, are trying to reason with you and have a progressive discussion.
     
    Pugguy, Dec 11, 2021
    Pugguy, Dec 11, 2021
    #79
    JohnThomas1 likes this.
  5. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    Jun 30, 2005
    Er...did you just admit you *are* trolling?

    With punctuation included, your post seems to be saying that:

    If you are not trolling, then this is once again an excellent example of why proper punctuation avoids misunderstandings.
     
    cross_trainer, Dec 11, 2021
    cross_trainer, Dec 11, 2021
    #80
    Bukkake likes this.
  6. Pugguy

    Pugguy Ingo, The Thinking Man’s GOAT Full Member

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    Aug 22, 2021
    @cross_trainer - I’m impressed.

    It’s like you re-fitted someone from their usual t-shirt, shorts and thongs/flip flops into a tux, bow tie and shiny black shoes.

    I find punctuation arduous myself , it interrupts my creative flow and conceptual framing.

    Do you mind if I dispense with my own punctuation going forward and could you poof read me after I post and make any due corrections?.

    You can be our our newly appointed: Grammar Eye for the woefully Remiss Guy.

    Thanks in advance.
     
    Pugguy, Dec 11, 2021
    Pugguy, Dec 11, 2021
    #81
    Entaowed, JohnThomas1 and cross_trainer like this.
  7. Pugguy

    Pugguy Ingo, The Thinking Man’s GOAT Full Member

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    Aug 22, 2021
    @cross_trainer

    Btw, I planted a spelling “egg” in my post. Please refrain from pointing out all possible and inadvertent punctuation errors otherwise.

    Maybe you’re simply being kind and letting it go through to the keeper/catcher instead of whacking me out of the ball park.
     
    Pugguy, Dec 11, 2021
    Pugguy, Dec 11, 2021
    #82
    cross_trainer likes this.
  8. Pugguy

    Pugguy Ingo, The Thinking Man’s GOAT Full Member

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    Aug 22, 2021
    And one more thing…yes, I’ve had too much coffee today….

    Years ago I bought a doco on the Bomber titled - Joe Louis: For All Time. Well that was clearly mislabelled, wasn’t it?

    It should’ve read:-

    Joe Louis: For a Finite, Abbreviated Period, Long Since OUTDATED.

    Clearly they’re LIARS or they simply didn’t have enough room on the DVD cover to print the real TRUTH.
     
    Pugguy, Dec 11, 2021
    Pugguy, Dec 11, 2021
    #83
    cross_trainer likes this.
  9. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    The DVD cover designer could have avoided that embarrassing error if he'd hired a better poofreader.
     
    cross_trainer, Dec 11, 2021
    cross_trainer, Dec 11, 2021
    #84
    Pugguy likes this.
  10. Pugguy

    Pugguy Ingo, The Thinking Man’s GOAT Full Member

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    Bazinga!
     
    Pugguy, Dec 11, 2021
    Pugguy, Dec 11, 2021
    #85
    cross_trainer and Entaowed like this.
  11. Reinhardt

    Reinhardt Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Oct 4, 2016

    Boy you nailed that one ,the Fury Wilder fight. I recently rewatched that fight and was struck by how horrible both men looked! Fury was wide open so much that even a windmiller like Wilder could nail him and Wilder is, well Wilder. Poor defense , slopping technique and clumsy footwork was the tale of the tape for this fight.
     
    Reinhardt, Dec 12, 2021
    Reinhardt, Dec 12, 2021
    #86
    kaapa2 likes this.
  12. Entaowed

    Entaowed Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Dec 16, 2012
    Previously I virtually nominated you for Sainthood in your efforts to get through to him.
    However things have morphed; you have tightened the noose via mucho intellectual rigor. Your patience has paid off.
    However there is a Sub Rosa sense of sadism in executing such a coldly rationale & public dissection.
    Which is more effective a humiliation than name calling, given that all are aware that he is completely incapable of offering any rational defense.

    I know not whether to congratulate you, or say take it easy with that fist in a velvet glove technique!
     
    Entaowed, Dec 12, 2021
    Entaowed, Dec 12, 2021
    #87
  13. ETM

    ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member

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    If I hadn't known it was for the heavyweight title and I was watching the fight based on its merits. It looked it could of been a couple of 4 round kids throwing roundhouse. There wasn't any skill on display. That's why Fury is gonna get his buttwhipped if he fights Usyk.
     
    ETM, Dec 12, 2021
    ETM, Dec 12, 2021
    #88
    Reinhardt and JohnThomas1 like this.
  14. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    Hm. I thought it might be more helpful to explain exhaustively, and maybe even put the discussion on a footing where the issues are clear and everyone can proceed on the most understandable bits. But you may be right...I'll lay off if it goes much further without any change. Sometimes I just get into debate mode.

    I don't really want to be a jerk to the guy; he's been reasonably polite to me, at least. I was likely more forceful than I needed to be.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2021
    cross_trainer, Dec 12, 2021
    cross_trainer, Dec 12, 2021
    #89
    Entaowed and Marvelous Mauler like this.
  15. JackSilver

    JackSilver Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Yeah well you say that,son but the two of them combined have more than 70 pro fights unbeaten against other opponents so can they really be as horrible looking an unskilled as you are suggesting they are?
     
    JackSilver, Dec 12, 2021
    JackSilver, Dec 12, 2021
    #90
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