Does SRR have any wins better than Ali vs Liston, Foreman, and Frazier?

So in SRR case, era doesn't matter but in Fitzsimmons case it does? You don't seem to be consistent with your criteria.

 

I say its either Ali , Monzon or Hagler as far as dominance, opponent quality and win / lose ratio goes.
Charles is great but has to many loses in my opinion and his best wins like louis were nowhere near in their best form.

 

Yes, when assessing greatness, you look at what someone achieved in his own era, but you also take into consideration how good his era was. In every sport, there is a point at which the sport sorta becomes professional enough, meaning it reaches a certain level of skill. So in any sport the beginning of it, when sportsmen are primitive, does not count.
In boxing, the cutoff point is around the 20s-30s. Before that, it was too primitive.

Plus, as I've said, SRR was close to unbeatable in his prime, while Greb and Langford lost multiple times.
Fitzsimmons belongs to the primitive era, thus he has no claim.

This is why SRR has the edge.

 

This is the cutoff point you just created? Are you aware that it's impossible to do that objectively?

Just admit that you have a strong bias for SRR, a bias that doesn't correlate well with the rest of your opinons about oldschool fighters.

 

Most of Charles losses were when he was severely deteriorating given that he was previously diagnosed with ALS, that resulted in him getting wheelchair bound after his career. He also had lost his killer instinct after killing a man in the ring and never had that same murderous intentions he had before. His resume is the toughest resume in boxing by far, just check it up. Louis isn't only his best win. He won over a prime Archie Moore, highly avoided fighter who was ducked by SRR in Charley Burley, Joe Maxim, Lloyd Marshall, Elmer Ray and so many damn more.

 

Liston was bigger, faster and far, far, faaar more technically sound that Marciano.

But P4P there's no comparison. You had to kill Marciano to win, while Liston would give up if you took him past the opening rounds.

If anyone fought Marciano like Ali fought Liston, they'd get killed. Ali's mistakes against Liston should have cost him his consciousness.

Look at how ali struggled w/ Shavers. I don't think Charles is as good as Quarry, not quite, but he's close. Based on Quarry's performance against Shavers, I'm certain it's Earnie, not Ez who's the bobble-head doll. Ali was old when he fought Shavers, fine. But so was Gerry.

Who did Ali beat (his own size, don't say Quarry) who was as skilled and complete as Walcott?

 

Going to the original question
Robinson's 2 wins over Kid Gavilan are as good as any of Ali's wins. Ray beat Jake Lamotta 5 times. Some tough close fights. Considering Sugar was spotting a great middleweight contender 10-15lbs in those wins puts it above Ali best wins. The other fighter who was just as dangerous for example "George Sugar Costner". He was such a Supreme talent that writers gave him the Sugar moniker. Costner paid for that. KO1. Tommy Bell another dangerous one.
Not as famous but vicious guys.

 

Because you are comparing fighters at different weights. Seriously, Foreman was retired by Jimmy Young. Liston quit TWICE against Ali. He couldn't put away machen.

A lot of Heavyweight champions lack the skillset to even be contenders in lower weight divisions.

No one considers Harold Johnson an ATG Hw, Marciano regularly ranks in the consensus top 10. Harold Johnson was a marciano-size sonny liston. Unlike Liston, Johnson actually had the balls to fight through adversity, rather than quit on his stool. Marciano >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Johnson>>>>>>> ... you know what, why even bother? Just consult the film yourself.

 

What?

 

That’s it then.
Ali’s career dismissed.

 

For me, SRR's best wins were over Kid Gavilan, and although they look like fairly close decision wins on paper, Ray took over in the later rounds, so his wins over the brilliant, bolo punching Cuban were fairly emphatic. He just spent the first half of both fights figuring out how to consistently get the better of Gavilan, and once he did, he won each round from around 7-12 against the crouching Cuban (I fear I'm getting very annoying with my alliteration, I can't help it lol).

But, I actually have Robinson somewhere between 5 and 7 in my all time p4p rankings, and I don't think he has as impressive of a victory than over 1974 George Foreman like Ali, but he obviously Ray has more wins over world class opposition than almost anyone in history. Love both Robinson and Ali. Always thought they were similar, but Robinson had a bit more killer instinct.

 

Foreman was not exactly the epithomy of skill.

 

Ha ha no he wasn't, but a 40-0 record, almost all knockouts, including early knockouts over Chuvalo, Frazier and Norton, and great at using his powerful jab to set up his power punches.

 

It's not dismissed, it's just put into proper context.