1962 Sonny Liston vs 1982 Gerry Cooney, 15 Rounds.

I never mentioned Marshall or Williams but Marshall did break Liston's jaw. And we're not talking about who can hit harder, we're talking about a boxing match. With your reasoning, the harder hitter simply wins! In that case Muhammad Ali would have lost most of his fights and never been a champion.
Now all I said was Liston by ko or tko in 3, but Cooney would hurt him and make him feel his shots. Case closed.

 

There's no proof that Liston ever actually did this.

My pick remains unchanged. Liston KO early. Machen is by far and away the best name listed here given the context of when the fights happened. I would also still pick Spinks to KO Cooney if they fought prime for prime.

I cannot emphasize how underwhelming Cooney's record is. The closest thing he has to a win over a world class heavyweight in their prime is Eddie Lopez.

 

All these caveats. World-class in their prime.

You mentioned Machen. Going in to their title challenges ...

Liston won a 12-round decision over Eddie Machen (who was coming off a loss to Zora Folley the same year). By comparison, Ken Norton (a Hall of Famer) was coming off a win over top-10 ranked Tex Cobb (who had just beaten Shavers). Cooney stopped Norton in 54 seconds.

Liston stopped Howard King, a journeyman with nearly 30 losses/draws, who hadn't won any of his last five fights. Cooney broke Ron Lyle's rib and stopped him in one. Liston stopped King in three.

Liston knocked out Albert Westphal in one. Westphal was no bigger than Canelo. He was 24-8-2. He was never a contender. Cooney tore Jimmy Young's face off and stopped him in four. Young was 25-9-2. He'd been the #1 contender a year and a half earlier. Young was coming off a win over British and Commonwealth Champ John L. Gardner. Westphal was coming off a loss to German champ Eric Schoppner.

Cooney's wins entering his title challenge with Holmes were fine. Cooney was 25-0 and 25 years old. He was considered the heir apparent. Liston was 33-1 and either 30 or 32 years old. He was considered the heir apparent, too.

If Cooney had faced Floyd Patterson for the title instead of Holmes, Cooney wins. If Liston had to fight 1982 Larry Holmes for the title in his first crack at the crown, Liston may never have won anything either.

There wasn't much separating Liston and Cooney. Over the course of their careers, Liston beat a couple guys who were better than some guys Cooney beat. But I wouldn't pick Zora Folley or Nino Valdes over Cooney. Cooney fought more Hall of Famers (Foreman, Holmes, Spinks, Norton). Beat one. Liston fought two (Ali and Patterson). Beat one.

But '82 Cooney vs. '62 Liston, I'd lean toward Cooney head-to-head.

 

Hahahahahahahah! So now Eddie Machen is better than Jimmy Young!?!?!?

I welcome your breakdown of their styles and skill sets.

 

How dare you presents facts and argue with logic! Don't you know, only emotional out-bursts and deluded fantasy are allowed here! You should be banned for being a grown man who presents himself reasonably!

 

Pure speculation?

Yeah, OK.

You're a charming fellow, I'll leave it at that.

 

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Why you back tracking!?!?

I thought you wanted me gone?

OK, so who hit harder, Ali whom Liston blinded with chemical agent before quitting on his stool against, or Cooney?

 

I'm done talking with you, go run your Seven Eleven.

 

India has provided the world many great things. I admit, my love of Boxing is not shared with my countrymen, but that is because we have a great appreciation of well-being. Boxing is very harmful to the body. Historically we had many great warriors. We're not the push-overs you wish us to be. We are "killing it" in cricket. Should you ever come to India you will be welcomed to my house as an honored guest. But you will have to try cricket.

 

Actually, I have family members who own many Dunkin Donuts. Jokes on you, they know it's rubbish coffee and only you drink it!

 

Yeah, all these ridiculous things that don't matter like how good you're opposition was or how close they were to their best when you beat them. I'm being totally unreasonable.

Norton being a hall of famer is irrelevant here, because again, he was shot. You dismiss Machen because he lost to Zora Folley (who was better than Tex Cobb ever was) and prop up Cobb for Norton as an impressive win on the basis that Cobb was a ranked in the top 10, even though Machen and Folley were both also ranked in the top 10, both of them ranked higher than Cobb. Machen was the highest ranked contender in the division at this time other than Liston himself. The fact that Norton had to settle for a split decision against Cobb was really just indicative of how much he'd declined.

Again, Lyle was shot and had just been TKO'd by Lynn Ball. You may think there's something impressive about beating name fighters after they're done, I don't really. So not much separating these two wins in quality for me.

And in the interim since being the #1 ranked contender, Young had gone 3-3. Not hard to see why his ranking had dropped. And by this point in time, Liston had already been the number one contender for a year and a half, beating most of the top contenders in that time. It wasn't like beating Westphal and King were important tests he needed to pass, they were stay busy fights while he was trying to get a fight with Patterson. The reason why you've arbitrarily decided to specifically focus upon the three fights leading up to each man's title challenge is because you know those three names are the only ones on Cooney's record worth a damn. And for what it's worth, had any of those fights taken place several years earlier, I think Cooney would've lost to all three. I've already brought up that I think he'd lose to Patterson to, and I don't think saying Liston would lose to Holmes means anything because Cooney lost to him to.

 

Prime for prime, Young was better than Machen. But by the time Cooney fought him, he was shot to pieces and into drugs and alcohol. That's all there really is to it. I welcome your breakdown of why you think Cooney could beat Liston based on their styles and skill sets.

 

Notwithstanding what I think re those fights, I don’t recall referencing and/or dismissing Cooney’s wins over Lyle, Norton and Young? Point me to same.

I do know Shavers smoked Young in fight 1 and also dumped Jimmy hard in fight 2. Did Gerry even manage to dump an older, out of shape and blood blinded Young? Hmmm.

When one guy can punch, KOs like Ingemar v Machen (the Super Swede being the GOAT anyway) can and do happen. Terrible Tim walloped Tillis in 1 but Iron Mike later struggled with The Cowboy over 10 rds. Waddup with that?

Ingemar was also somewhat of an unknown quantity v Machen while Liston’s rep well preceded him, Machen was an excellent boxer but he was well aware of Liston’s power so he also RAN to survive (see Tommy v Foreman ) but Liston was perfectly rounded in outboxing him over 12 rds. Where Foreman might’ve floundered (see George v Young) Liston had much more to fall back on if a KO wasn’t realistically possible - the ability to adapt himself - a simple concept you are clearly having difficulty with.

Oh, and Liston kept Patterson down, whereas Ingemar couldn’t despite numerous right hands and the fight devolving into a mugging of a defenceless individual who still kept getting back.

LOL, back to Foreman v Morrison. Tommy ran from a built for comfort, definitely not for mobility, 256 lb behemoth in Foreman. But that made Tommy an “advanced” mod. mover - Machen was apparently just some ever- moving hack that Liston couldn’t catch up to, right?

Is Tunney now being conveniently lifted from his primitive era to acknowledge him as master boxer in comparison to and to the detriment of the relatively super mod. Machen, because you do keep saying boxing has progressively evolved.

Tell me about bias again and, while you’re there, what evidence do you have to prove that Liston deliberately caused lineament or monsel solution (coagulant) to get into Ali’s eyes?

Anyway, if you want to lose your mooney, by all means, bet on Cooney. I have a gift for rhyme also, as you can see.

 

I would watch the Machen fight again, my friend.