Top 30 All-Time Heavyweights. Where to Begin.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by djanders, Dec 19, 2021.


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  1. djanders

    djanders Boxing Addict Full Member

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    As some of you might already know, My family is working on a "Family" All-Time 30 Greatest Heavyweights. What started out as 3 family members has now grown to 7, and things were getting very confusing, in that some were considering certain fighters that others weren't even taking into consideration. We collectively decided that we needed a common list to start from.

    For that we needed an unbiased way, that is quantifiable, to select the fighters who would be considered in this (the common list), since we obviously can't each to in depth analyses on every Heavyweight who ever fought. So far we've come up with the following cut off points.

    LINEAL CHAMPIONS (RING RECORD BOOK) OR UNIVERSALLY RECOGNIZED LINEAL CHAMPIONS 1870-2022: DRAW W/ SITTING LINEAL CHAMPION OF 12 OR MORE ROUNDS. TWO OR MORE CREDIBLE BELTS (POLICE GAZETTE, STRONG CLAIMANT, WORLD BOXING ASSOCIATION, WORLD BOXING COUNCIL. INTERNATIONAL BOXING FEDERATION, WORLD BOXING ORGANIZATION, INTERNATIONAL BOXING ORGANIZATION, WORLD BOXING UNION, OR STRONG ONE BELT CLAIM (WIDELY ACKNOWLEDGED, DEFEATED LINEAL CHAMPION TO GET TO SAME, WON A LONG TOURNAMENT ELIMINATION SERIES, HELD SAME FOR AT LEAST THREE YEARS, OR HELD BLACK TITLE AND ACKNOWLEDGED BY MOST AS NOT ONLY A VICTIM OF THE COLOR LINE, BUT ALSO LIKELY TO HAVE GAINED A LINEAR BELT IF GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY, DURING HIS REIGN AS BLACK CHAMPION. (Sorry for the Caps, but I copied and Pasted from our List of Needed Credentials.)

    This produced the following list:

    Oleksandr Usyk
    Andy Ruiz
    Anthony Joshua
    TYSON FURY
    WLADIMIR KLITSCHKO
    VITALI KLITSCHKO
    Corrie Sanders
    LENNOX LEWIS
    HASIM RAHMAN
    GEORGE FOREMAN
    MICHAEL MOORER
    RIDDICK BOWE
    EVANDER HOLYFIELD
    JAMES BUSTER DOUGLAS
    MIKE TYSON
    MICHAEL SPINKS
    Tim Witherspoon
    LARRY HOLMES
    Ken Norton
    JOE FRAZIER
    James Ellis
    Ernie Terrell
    MUHAMMAD ALI
    CHARLES SONNY LISTON
    INGEMAR JOHANNSON
    FLOYD PATTERSON
    ROCKY MARCIANO
    JERSEY JOE WALCOTT
    EZZARD CHARLES
    JOE LOUIS
    JAMES J. BRADDOCK
    MAX BAER
    PRIMO CARNERA
    JACK SHARKEY
    MAX SCHMELING
    GENE TUNNEY
    JACK DEMPSEY
    JESS WILLARD
    Harry Wills
    Sam Langford
    JACK JOHNSON
    Phila. Jack O'Brien
    TOMMY BURNS
    MARVIN HART
    JAMES J. JEFFRIES
    BOB FITZSIMMONS
    Tom Sharkey
    Peter Maher
    JAMES J. CORBETT
    Peter Jackson
    Charlie Mitchell
    JOHN L. SULLIVAN
    Paddy Ryan
    Joe Goss
    Tom Allen
    Jem Mace

    Any additional input from you guys will be looked into and is appreciated. Thanks!
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2021
    djanders, Dec 19, 2021
    djanders, Dec 19, 2021
    #1
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  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Good grief, that's the first souce i've ever seen recognise Joshua. Interesting.

    Anyone else recognise Joshua?
     
    McGrain, Dec 19, 2021
    McGrain, Dec 19, 2021
    #2
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  3. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    No, but I think I see the logic.
     
    janitor, Dec 19, 2021
    janitor, Dec 19, 2021
    #3
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  4. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Remove Allen, Mitchell, Jackson, Maher, Sharkey, O'Brien, Langford, Wills, Terrell, Ellis, Norton, Witherspoon, Sanders, VK, Joshua, Ruiz, Usky.

    Add Briggs.

    Thee is probably a credible argument for Maher, Sharkey, and VK.
     
    janitor, Dec 19, 2021
    janitor, Dec 19, 2021
    #4
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  5. willfightforcake

    willfightforcake New Member Full Member

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    Really cool that you guys have delved into the bareknuckle era! Lots of great names in there, a few that I would add might be Joe Jeannette and Sam McVea, part of the original golden age of black heavyweights who were victims of Jeffries, Johnson, Willard and Dempsey drawing the colour line. They weren't quite as good as their counterparts Langford and Wills, but imo have stronger resumes than some of the other pre WW1 guys on your list like Mitchell, Maher, Hart, Burns and O'Brien.

    Some of the lineal champions like Jess Willard and Primo Carnera don't have very strong resumes imo, you could maybe replace them with guys like Fred Fulton, Tommy Loughran and Harry Greb. Granted Loughran and Greb weren't heavyweights, but still had more big wins at heavyweight than guys like Willard and Carnera.

    Their were a bunch of strong boxers from the black murderers row as well, like Archie Moore, Elmer Ray, Harold Johnson and Jimmy Bivins who had some great wins at heavyweight, and also Nino Valdes, Eddie Machen and Zora Folley might be worth considering from the post world war 2 era as well.

    The Ali-Frazier-Foreman era was particularly strong, you could include a whole bunch of guys like Jerry Quarry, Oscar Bonavena, Jimmy Young, Earnie Shavers and Ron Lyle.

    Since then, there a bunch of other strong fighters, but most of the top guys would have held some type of world title, so I doubt I could think of anyone you haven't already considered.
     
    willfightforcake, Dec 19, 2021
    willfightforcake, Dec 19, 2021
    #5
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  6. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    #30. Alexander Povetkin
    #29. Vitali Klitschko
    #28. Bob Fitzsimmons
    #27. Ingo Johansson
    #26. Sam Langford
    #25. Tim Witherspoon
    #24. Ken Norton
    #23. Chris Byrd
    #22. Harry Wills
    #21. Max Baer
    #20. Jack Sharkey
    #19. Jersey Joe Walcott
    #18. Max Schmeling
    #17. Jack Johnson
    #16. James J Jeffries
    #15. Riddick Bowe
    #14. Jack Dempsey
    #13. Floyd Patterson
    #12. Ezzard Charles
    #11. Sonny Liston
    #10. Mike Tyson
    #09. Rocky Marciano
    #08. Joe Frazier
    #07. Wladimir Klitschko
    #06. Evander Holyfield
    #05. George Foreman
    #04. Lennox Lewis
    #03. Larry Holmes
    #02. Joe Louis
    #01. Muhammad Ali
     
    George Crowcroft, Dec 19, 2021
    George Crowcroft, Dec 19, 2021
    #6
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  7. willfightforcake

    willfightforcake New Member Full Member

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    Great list!
     
    willfightforcake, Dec 19, 2021
    willfightforcake, Dec 19, 2021
    #7
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  8. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Archie Moore is a MUST on any top 30 HW list…in my opinion. Think his Hw record was something like 64-4 o ly losing to Ali Marciano Patterson over the age of 38 think the other loss was Bivins. I would also add Harold Johnson but that one is up for debate towards the bottom
     
    Gazelle Punch, Dec 19, 2021
    Gazelle Punch, Dec 19, 2021
    #8
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  9. djanders

    djanders Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Personally, I tend to agree with most of what you're saying. By vote, we've decided to make a fighter PROVE he belongs on this list for consideration, using the criteria mentioned in my opening post. We'll certainly look into your suggestions and see if there are any factors in their careers that can be brought forward as a Qualifier that would exclude others but include them for consideration. Also, being on this list does not get a fighter into our magic 30. For instance I highly doubt if Allen (as an example) has any chance of being included in our top 30 list. I'm sure our initial larger list for consideration is going to expand somewhat (60? 70? 100?) as we realize we may not have enough factors taken into consideration that can be quantified as peculiar to certain fighters. There's really no harm in leaving the others in because a lot of them won't make the 30 cut anyway, which is really what we're aiming at. I think the list, as is, is already in the 50's, and must end up as 30, so if some don't belong in the large list it really doesn't matter in the long run, unless 1 of them shocks us, which I doubt will happen, since the family people participating in this have pretty good boxing knowledge, especially as that pertains to the Heavyweights, LPR and MOQ.
     
    djanders, Dec 19, 2021
    djanders, Dec 19, 2021
    #9
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  10. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    Elmer Ray and Tommy Loughran, are two I'd add.

    I'd suggest excluding the bareknuckles guys, I don't think it makes sense to include Jem Mace, and not guys like Jem Belcher, Hen Pearce and Tom Sayers, and at that point you've made a ton more work for yourself with guys that are really hard to evaluate.
     
    BitPlayerVesti, Dec 19, 2021
    BitPlayerVesti, Dec 19, 2021
    #10
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  11. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I am working on my top 100 by resumee only, I think this list is only 96 or so but I think anybody outside this is hard to argue;

    Jackson

    Corbett

    Goddard

    Slavin

    Maher

    Fitz

    Sharkey

    Jeffries

    Martin

    Burns

    Hart

    Gunboat

    McCarty

    Johnson

    McVea

    Jeannette

    Langford

    Willard

    Fulton

    Wills

    Clarke

    Norfolk

    Greb

    Dempsey

    Gibbons

    Tunney

    Sharkey

    Godfrey

    Schmeling

    Loughran

    Carnera

    Baer

    Braddock

    Louis

    Pastor

    Ray

    Murray

    Bivins

    Walcott

    Charles

    Marciano

    Moore

    Patterson

    Johansson

    Henry

    Machen

    Folley

    Johansson

    Ali

    Bonavena

    Frazier

    Terrell

    Quarry

    Ellis

    Foreman

    Holmes

    Norton

    Young

    Lyle

    L.Spinks

    Cooney

    Coetzee

    Tate

    Shavers

    Berbick

    Weaver

    Smith

    Tucker

    Douglas

    Mercer

    Ruddock

    Tyson

    Holyfield

    Bowe

    Moorer

    Lewis

    Wlad

    Vitali

    Byrd

    Ibeabuchi

    Tua

    McCall

    Rahman

    Povetkin

    Haye

    Chagaev

    Valuev

    Ruiz

    Toney

    Golota

    Witherspoon

    Tubbs

    Dokes

    Thomas

    Page

    H Johnson
     
    mattdonnellon, Dec 19, 2021
    mattdonnellon, Dec 19, 2021
    #11
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  12. The Phenom

    The Phenom Pretty Handsome Full Member

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    Good list overall.Putting Byrd higher than Vitali Klitschko is the most obvious mistake.
     
    The Phenom, Dec 19, 2021
    The Phenom, Dec 19, 2021
    #12
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  13. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    Byrd obviously belongs above Vitali.
     
    George Crowcroft, Dec 19, 2021
    George Crowcroft, Dec 19, 2021
    #13
  14. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Good list! I'd have Jimmy Young in there myself.
     
    mattdonnellon, Dec 19, 2021
    mattdonnellon, Dec 19, 2021
    #14
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  15. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    I think I had Young at like #33, so we're thinking along the same lines :thumbsup:
     
    George Crowcroft, Dec 19, 2021
    George Crowcroft, Dec 19, 2021
    #15
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