BOXING and the Deterioration of Society...

Thomas Sowell is quite probably the most brilliant thinker in America today and boxing is reflecting the decline in morality, maturity and civility of western civilization. Of course the same can be seen in other sports as well. I also believe you're right that it began with Ali.

 

How poetic. Nice

 

Fair enough.

Myself, I see restrictions on authenticity as a continuum, which stretches from rules of politeness on one end to legal sanctions on the other. Forcing Billy not to eat Nana is different in (extreme) degree from forcing Billy not call Nana mean names, but both are doing the same kind of thing. Restraining the id.

Usually, politeness rules (and criminal laws) exist to restrain authentic bad behavior. It's not that common to restrict people from wanting to be nicer or more gracious to each other. Take the Joe Louis handshaking example: we commend Joe Louis for being polite because we suspect that his authentic self would prefer to demean or threaten the other guy. It's not because we expect Louis's authentic self to spontaneously hug Tony Galento and wish him great luck.

Or to put it another way, I don't think it's common for people to need to "fake" bad behavior. Most fake personas are (perceived as) better than the real ones almost by definition. If they weren't, there would be no need for the masquerade.

 

I should rephrase: Joe Louis himself -- the actual person -- may very well have wanted to just shake the opponent's hand. We, the audience, find it slightly emotionally difficult to imagine how someone gearing up to punch another person would shake hands with them. So we compliment Louis on his politeness.

Factually, I absolutely agree that there was a "code" back then for media interactions. Ethically, I think that at least some of the (non-racist) polite behavior imposed on Louis by that code was actually rather pleasant -- something I would encourage people to do even when the media isn't watching them.

 

Yes, this is probably true as well. Someone who is outright lying is uncomfortable to be around as well. And corrupting to the person lying, IMO. What I think people in Louis's time were more about is the idea of self-restraint, rather than obsequieous deception.

Sticking with the handshake example, if my opponent maintains a carefully neutral tone and wishes us both a good, clean fight despite wanting to kill me, he can consider his obligations handily met.

 

That's kind of what I'm getting at.

The ritual exists because, in the general course of normal human behavior, two guys who want to beat each other up don't politely shake hands. The entire handshaking ritual is a good example of enforced politeness. I see it as the same kind of thing as expecting Louis to be polite to reporters (even when the reporters are rude idiots.)

Yeah, it was imposed for racist reasons. Although most of the white guys boxing back then were also expected to be somewhat polite.

But since I'm discussing what ought to have happened, I think I would prefer the fighters of both races acting more like Louis.

I agree that it's a shame that rules have to be imposed, formal or otherwise. I think it's just a cost of being people, though. I personally accept having laws and customs imposed on me, because I recognize that I'm far from morally perfect, and might need rules to prevent me from getting tempted to step out of line now and again.

(Not that I'm planning to run around murdering people or anything, mind you.)

I agree with this. I think the solution -- to the extent that there is one -- is to extend one's mentality of "professionalism in the strictest sense" to one's private life as well.

 

Yeah, none of this ever happened in boxing's golden era...

 

I would support ABC belt weigh-in regulations that make these exact taunts obligatory.

 

This is an interesting thread premise. I'll have a read through everything first before I respond as I can see some good opposing points being made that deserve more than a cursory glance.

 

I am not as knowledgeable as you about Britt and Corbett and there's no footage of them going ****ing nuts in front of the press, or whatever you alluded to. That's basically what I meant.

Wilder. Although, of course he only pretends to be a psycho. He is very much an authentic moron.
Most of the culprits just act like children, but they are grown men.

We all have pressure exerted upon us by ourselves or others to act "inauthentically". Usually in a good or logical way.
It is called self-control or socialisation.
We don't just act on our animal impulses and blurt out every thought that comes to mind. There's a good reason for that.

It's no big deal if they refuse to shake hands.
My point is, most of them should just turn up to the press conference or whatever, shakes hands (or not), say a little bit about the fight, and go home, or whatever. Because that's sufficient. Instead of acting like morons, throwing insults and objects around, thinking it's entertaining. Just my opinion. Most these fighters have at some point come through the amateur ranks, obscurity and anonymity, and you can be sure the vast majority didn't act like that until they got a bit of attention.

Well, I took the comment that you made about Joe Louis being "trained not to upset white people" as linked to "Yes sir, no sir" comment.

And the sentence was:
""Yes sir no sir" might have ben the right thing for Louis because he might not have got his title shot without it, that's how awful his America was in comparison to today's"

I took that as him saying "Yes sir, No sir" to be nice to white reporters, as part of his behaviour to not upset white people, and so he can get his title shot, because America was racist.
Yeah, that's definitely how I read it.

But anyway, you are talking about stuff that has nothing to do with what I think is "good behaviour". I think good behaviour is basically anything that isn't acting like a complete ****. I have not implied that calling people "sir" is necessary or preferable, or anything of the sort. Just acting like a sober adult will suffice. Not acting in a way that will get security guards and police called or scare civilians in any normal environment.

Whether Joe Louis was "forced" to call people "sir", and whether or not he actually always did so, is not relevant to my point. I haven't seen it.
You moved the conversation over to that. I don't care whether he called a man "sir" or not. I don't care whether he was media trained or not.
I'm not saying everyone needs to be media trained or given rules on what they can or cannot say. I'm saying boxers can act normal outside of the ring at public appearances, it's not a bad thing. Just acting normal, not demented. That's all, that's my standard.