Marciano the heavyweight GOAT

I mean specifically his stint in the east when it was relatively weak. LeBron also had many good teammates and had way more freedom and influence over his teams management than a lot of players.

Off the top of my head, I could see Duncan, Kobe, Bird, Garnett, Kareem, and Wilt getting to nearly the same number of finals if not the same if they swapped places.

 

Bird didn't even have full decade of prime. I don't think Kobe was good enough to do much with as bad team as 2018 Cavs, especially in his 15th season.

LeBron faced some weak competition, especially in 2015-18 period but I disagree that he faced weak competition in 2011-13.

 

I like to see Shaq vs Marciano

 

I mean if they stayed healthy every season of course. I'm aware Bird had health issues like his back.

2018 Cavs had Love, Korver, Smith, Crowder and Thomas. Not a jaw dropping Lineup, but nowhere near the worst supporting cast. LeBron did not even win a championship in 2018 even if you want to completely trash that team but he did get to the finals. I don't think it would be "impossible" for Kobe to at least make it to the finals with that team.

I agree with the last part, I wasn't suggesting his entire career has been a cake walk.

But in regards to Marciano, he had neither the most fearsome competition, nor did he have a particularly long reign. It's completely valid to bring that up for his ATG rating and to question if other champions could have repeated what he did. Certainly guys like Ali, Lewis, Holmes, Wladmir, and Louis who beat younger prime versions of some of the same guys Marciano beat.

 

Longevity is the part of the greatness though.

Just mentioning Thomas or Smith as positive players shows all I need to know to be honest. Have you seen how horrible Love played throughout the playoffs? This team wasn't good at all and I don't see 15th season Kobe winning anything with that team.

 

Walls no 5 in1953 no 5 in1954 , beat;
Slade
Harrison
Beshore
Reynolds
Layne x2
Kahut
He was a big guy who could bang with either hand.
Baker no5 in1950,9 in 51,4 in 54,2 in55,8 in56, beat;
Richardson
Holman
Slade
Mederos
Wallace
Brion
Bivins
Peaks x2
Cestac
Payne
Layne x3
Valdes x2
Baksi


Valdes.no 1 in1953,no 1 in54 no6 in55 beat;
Charles
Neuhaus
Sys
Summerlin
Cockell
Agramonte
Jackson
Carter
McMurtry
DeJohn
Bethea
Erskine
Holman
Richardson
London

Nobody is convincing me these guys were not better challengers than Cockell or Lastarza.

 

Sorry, I hope they fix your ******ation at the clinic.

 

He retired undefeated and beat the great Joe Louis

 

As John Roxborough said in response to Al Weill crowing ,"my boy just beat Joe Louis," "no he didn't beat the Joe Louis" he beat someone called by that name,"or words to that effect.

 

You gonna be telling us that Berbick beat the great Ali next?

 

The gap wasn’t that large nor close to it. Did Ali go 8-0 in a year span beating several ranked men and several more formally ranked men or ones that would be later? I despise that comparison because it’s so off base. Ali had Parkinson’s and brain damage and was inactive for two years. Louis had neither and was proven throughout his comeback. Obviously nowhere near prime but certainly not an individual who didn’t belong in a ring and was still very dangerous. With wins over Bivins, Savold, Brione x2, Agramonte x2, Beshore . That’s more good wins then many good “contenders” have their whole careers. Marciano deserves his due for the win. I look at it like Fury’s or AJs win over Wlad except Louis was much younger then Wlad.

 

So Parkinson’s disease was only discovered in 1980 with Ali? No one ever heard about it before then which is why no one mentioned it before the Holmes and Berbick fights? Either that or doctors were useless back then.

 

If you're ranking heavyweight champions by what they accomplished and legacy then no fighter was ever greater than Joe Louis. Followed by Ali , Holmes then Marciano. Had Holmes retired before the Spinks fight he'd be considered the greatest. But in a head to head matchup? I can hardly begin to put Rocky in the top 10 and for the same reason that Ezzard Charles one of the greatest pound for pound fighters in history isn't near the top 10 in heavyweights. He simply couldn't compete with full fledged heavyweights.

 

Ali's doctor Ferdia Pacheco quit because he told Ali he shouldn't fight anymore. Ali actually failed the physical in the Holmes fight and couldn't perform some of the tests. You're right ,the doctors were useless.

 

He asked me to make an argument. I didn't say I believe it