Ingo vs Cleveland Williams

Another lie. I never said Machen claimed Williams hit harder than Ingo. What I said was

I'm admittedly not much but unlike you, I'm an honest poster, and don't need to lie to get my points across.

 

The only reason Williams didn't knock him out, was because Richardson had been dq'd for butting. He dropped Richardson in the 1st which Ingo failed to do despite facing an older, aging version who'd lost 5 times since his loss to Williams.

Also, I see you failed to address my argument (instead opting to predictably change the subject as opposed to conceding the point) regarding London's performances against those same 2 common opponents which proves any theory of a H2H fight based on performances between common opponents is, like yourself, laughably non-sensical.

 

Here's how the court case went if you guys are interested. https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp/174/522/1754621/

 

This is excellent and interesting info - adding legit value to the discussion. Thanks.

 

Johansson's 206 is 10-12 lbs heavier than in his other two world title fights and 5 lbs heavier than he ever weighed again for the remainder of his career. You can't use a single outlier to double the size of the range.

 

Richardson was a rough customer. He seemed to be involved in sparkling a lot of riots too. Pretty good fighter though.

 

He was an ex rugby player,very free with his head in fights.

 

I'm sorry the fact that Ingo weighed 206 in a classic title fight hurts the "size" argument you are trying to make.

206 is only 2 lbs heavier than Ingo's previous career high some 5 years previously. If you have to set limitation parameters like "two other world title fights" and not consider the actual range, you are just narrowing the scope to fit your narrative.

Ingo was 195 in one of his worst filmed outings. He came in at 206 and made a much better effort. You have not made a good case to exclude this listing from consideration.

 

Perhaps this is why Ingo didn't want to face Machen again....

Given how the first fight went. That and Ingo was now the outstanding #1 contender and wanted to fight the actual Champion.

 

Machen was the sole ranked contender Ingo beat.

 

No, what hurts the "size" argument that you're trying to make - that the difference between the two men was only 5-10 lbs - is that to make it work you have to include that one bout in which Ingo weighed 5 pounds more than in any other fight in the entire second half of his career. There's no "narrowing of the scope" required.

Johansson weighed 196 and 198 for his two career-defining wins, and 206 for a "classic" which ended with him flat on his back unconscious.

 

Ingo without much trouble for the KO

 

He ended a bout at 195 flat on on his back unconscious.

Williams also ended up utterly destroyed at 215....and at 210...etc.

I just fairly took their weight ranges from around 57-63 when this bout would have been interesting and gave an honest assessment of the difference instead of picking and choosing which weight I wanted.

For instance had this bout happened in 57- 58 we could be looking at a 202 lb Ingo vs a 208 lb Big Cat. Or a 200 lb Ingo vs a 202 lb Big Cat. Or both men even weighing the same.

If you want to exclude certain weights because you have a bias, that's on you. And that absolutely is narrowing the scope to fit an agenda rather you feel it is right or wrong.

You've explained over and over my weight range is wrong because I fairly included Ingo's highest weight from this period in addition to Big Cat's ..that's a ridiculous argument to make. I actually narrowed the scope for Big Cat if anything by excluding his lowest sub 210 weights from this period.

Ive explained this matter well enough now. You made it clear you disagree so that's that. I think the biggest issue is I looked at this as a "what if" timeframe and not a fantasy match up that would transport specific versions.

 

I watched the Machen knockdown in slow motion 6x. It didn't look like an overhand right to me.

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4:10 Ingo took his head off the center line, cocked his right, then threw a vicious cross down the middle. Machen fell straight backwards, which meant the force of the punch was delivered in a fairly straight line. The overhand rights of guys like Witherspoon look very different and are more of a hooking motion.

Additionally, Machen did not get knocked out with a single shot. The bingo made his legs weak when Machen got up, then Ingo followed up with additional shots and flurries. It took 3 knockdowns. The last knockdown, Machen looked like he was touching the canvas with his left glove and was only hold up by the ropes while Ingo was able to land freely. The ref should have stepped in immediately to give Machen a count or wave off the fight but he did neither. I am not suggesting Machen could have turned things around here, he was likely 95% done for and a stoppage would have been justified. But if anything other than your feet touch the canvas or you are held by the ropes it's technically a down. Machen was completely helpless and Ingo was able to land vicious shots on him.

 

Criminally incompetent referee.