As a spin off of the Liston vs Lyle thread, me and @swagdelfadeel got into a discussion of who should be favored over whom. I'm in the Lyle camp and he’s in the Williams camp. At best, I think Williams does as well as Shavers. Any posters care to weigh in?
I've already made my case for Williams being the superior of the 2, and I feel I will be in the minority and face a lot of backlash but will give my case. Williams was more versatile, faster, better conditioned and a much better boxer imo, seeing as how he handled his boxer, the number 2 rated Machen, much better than Lyle handed his. the unrated (in the first fight at least) Young. Young absolutely dominated Lyle, embarrassing him and won 19 of the 20 rounds they shared together. Williams on the other hand did much better against Machen. Holding him to a draw. A majority draw actually. 2 judges had it a draw while the third had Williams clearly ahead. "Williams the no. 5 contender felt he had turned in an upset. Most of the crowd of 10,000 partial perhaps to the hometown favorite and one judge agreed." Source: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/48465177/the-news-review/ https://www.newspapers.com/clip/68996351/the-fresno-bee/ Williams nearly floors Machen here. “Cleve can punch and he’s fast for a big man. He’s twice as fast as Liston I had to keep on him keep on him keep pressing and keep him from getting set” Source: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/68996756/the-sacramento-bee/ "Machen said Williams was twice as fast as Sonny Liston" Source: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/76953678/the-charlotte-news/ It should also be noted that again, Young was unrated against Lyle both times (he may have been rated in the 2nd fight but I don't believe so) while Machen when he fought Williams, was the highest rated heavyweight not named Sonny Liston. Additionally, Williams beat more ranked boxers than Lyle. Williams has Daniels 2X, Miteff, and Rischer who were all in the top ten for a total of 4. I would argue he deserved the verdict against Terrell in the rematch but I digress. (Obviously, this was cut short by him being shot, no fault of his own) whereas Lyle to my knowledge only has 1 in Shavers (I may very well be wrong). Williams also made it higher in the ratings than Lyle at #2 (when he was shot). Highest Lyle made it was 3. Some may point to Lyle's superior efforts against Foreman than Williams' against Liston's but I went into this in a post earlier today To add to that, Williams performances against Liston while admittedly inferior to Lyle's against Foreman, were nothing to scoff at. Williams took the fight to Liston, broke his nose, staggered him, and almost knocked him out (by Liston's own admission). "Williams hit very hard and he was quick" "He hit as hard as I could but he couldn't take it like I could" https://books.google.com/books?id=9...hUKEwjz2eGWs7XpAhWIg-AKHZlGCKgQ6AEwAHoECAoQAQ "two of William's losses came at the hands of Liston, who has said Williams was the hardest puncher he has ever met." https://www.newspapers.com/clip/51090697/sioux-city-journal/ "Williams hit Liston with a left hook that would have finished any other man It would have torn some fighters heads off." https://www.newspapers.com/clip/54152307/fort-lauderdale-news "I went out to feel him out in the first round and he almost knocked me out. I thought he had cut my throat" Source: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/54153015/daily-news-post/ I think Williams inferiority to Lyle is a commonly repeated myth, which simply doesn't stand up under scrutiny. Hope I changed some minds on this one or at least gave some of you pause.
Do you rate Williams as superior to Shavers? Also, I don't believe that any version of Foreman just pushes over Lyle. I think it would always have been a brawl. Foreman might have changed his style, but Foreman's power was still the same.
This is a great thread actually cuz it forced people to be truly honest about two fighters that everybody loves to hate on.
Liston's "He hit as hard as I could, but he couldn't take it like I could" is an important point here, IMO. Criticize Foreman and Shavers for their lack of craft in their respective fights with Lyle, but they both hit extremely hard. Lyle beat one and produced knockdowns against the other despite being bounced off the canvas himself each time. He may have a greater chance at survival in a shootout than Williams does.
Yes I think Williams is superior to Shavers as well. I'd give Shavers the advantage in punching power (somewhat but not to close), Chin (very close). but Williams shits all over him in virtually everything else, hand-speed, stamina, boxing skills, consistency especially (Williams is never losing to someone like Stallings even on an off-night). His power might have still been the same (but even that I question) but he lacked confidence, and tried to be someone he wasn't in the ring. He had no thought of a jab, head movement, defense, or even glove-blocking (which he was underrated at) 2 years out of the ring couldn't have helped him either.[/QUOTE]
Ernie Terrell, had never been stopped before or again (excluding his last fight when he was but a shell) and soon went on to become the 2nd best fighter of the mid 60s and hold the WBA title. Alex Miteff (ranked) drew with Chuvalo, then later lost a disputed SD to him in Chuvalo's home state, knocked down Henry Cooper before losing a close fight, defeated Nino Valdez, Willie Besmanoff, Wayne Bethea, Alonzo Johnson 2X, etc and would later put on an excellent performance against Ali, and even hurt him before being stopped in a close fight. Roger Rischer (ranked) held wins over Charlie Powell 2X (both dominations), Henry Cooper, Young Jack Johnson, etc. John Holman was ranked #4 just the previous year and involved in the tournament for Marciano's title, and had arguably one of the best KO victims list of anyone who never won the title; Ezzard Charles, Elmer Ray, Cesar Brion, Boardwalk Billy Smith, Bob Satterfield, Willie Bean, Larry Watson, Julio Mederos. Young Jack Johnson, though inconsistent, held wins over Folley, Charles, Besmanoff, Bean, among others Alonzo Johnson was also ranked (though not at that point I believe), regarded as a good and very durable fighter, never having been stopped or even dropped, and held wins over Valdez, Pastrano, Hunter, among others and was also coming off an excellent performance against Ali just months earlier. Here's how he fared against Williams. "Cleveland (Big Cat) Williams, who did to Alonzo Johnson what 29 other opponents couldn't do, said today he wants to fight 2nd ranked heavyweight Eddie Machen next. Johnson, 195, stepped into the ring last night without having been knocked out in his previous 29 fights. Williams, 210, took just two minutes and twenty six seconds to wipe that away. Johnson never landed a blow. Williams put him away with a flashing left hook." -United Press International Those are just his KO wins. I'll ask this again. Name me three opponents who were ranked to support your theory that Lyle had a "far superior resume" to Williams.