Is Vasyl Lomachenko p4p the GOAT?

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by Beouche, Dec 15, 2021.



  1. Ioakeim Tzortzakis

    Ioakeim Tzortzakis Active Member Full Member

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    I swear, you just don't understand what matters in this sport. Half of the stuff you said were just pulled out of your backside.

    No, these wins are not more impressive, they are the same. They are literally the same guys, a prize or a trophy are not going to change the quality of those fighters. One has a prize and the other doesn't, that doesn't make a win better. You are basically saying that if I defeat a future all time great in a non title bout, it's less impressive than if I beat a paper champ because he has a title. That is absolutely ridiculous. It's the quality of the FIGHTER that makes a win impressive, not a stupid prize. You can't even know if a fighter will be better prepared and in better condition if he is fighting for a prize or not, the opponent that could give him the chance to win a prize may be a bum and he might not take him seriously, while the "random" guy might be a killer, you are just assuming things that cannot be proven, straight out of your arse.

    You do also realize that you literally said the exact same thing I said in my school example right ? I even gave 2 parenthesis to make it even more obvious that primary and middle school are the amateur fights, that high school is turning pro, and college is making it to the top. And if they are not the same thing like you say, and amateur fights are so imporant to go pro why were you previously accusing Armstrong of losing his early fights if he was so unprepared and why weren't you making excuses for him instead of Loma? Quit trying to make yourself look smart because you make yourself look like even more like a fool instead.

    And you're wrong, you can discount accomplishments because amateur Boxing and pro Boxing are different things with different equipment, rules and criteria. No one mentions Ali's amateur career, Leonard's, Whitaker's or anyone else you can think of when they talk about their greatness. Everyone now just wants to find a convenient excuse to make their dear Loma something he is not.

    Do you want to know what Lomachenko truly is ? He is the greatest amateur boxer of all time, a boxer with truly elite skills, who is constantly overrated because a lot of people get impressed too easily. They lose their minds over his sidesteps, feints and flashy aesthetics and suddenly act like he is an immortal Boxing God and assume that he just invented all that stuff. There were Boxers 70 years ago who could do what Lomachenko does more effectively, albeit not as aesthetically in most cases. Loma is the GOAT amateur, and an unproven ( in an ATG measurement ) Boxer with lowkey ATG skills. Loma is not the GOAT, and he is light years away from it. Deal with it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2022
  2. Olu G. Rotimi

    Olu G. Rotimi The Right Honourable Lord President of the Council Full Member

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    No where close.
     
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  3. miniq

    miniq Tyson Fury Undisputed HW Champion 18/5/24 Full Member

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    Only 1 man is unblemished, undefeated, unstoppable and been the champion, the man, the dogs gonads for the last 7+ years.

    His name is Tyson Fury.
     
  4. ikrasevic

    ikrasevic For the honorable cross and the golden freedom Full Member

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    What about Artur Beterbiev. He is not ?
     
  5. Zecora

    Zecora New Member Full Member

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    Nah, I'd probably say it's Sugar Ray Robinson.
     
  6. buster007

    buster007 FAB 4 R A GAY PORN CLUB Full Member

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    yet another dumb topic.
     
  7. Betyabeatyaup

    Betyabeatyaup Active Member Full Member

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    Unproven in an ATG measurement? Didn’t the dude win his first two weight divisions (or three) in the fewest amount of fights? He beat GRJ for a title in just his third pro fight right? He was also considered a pound for pound guy in 10 fights or so right?
    I started watching boxing in the 90s and I’ve never seen someone with his footwork and feints, he is something completely new in boxing. Combined with his achievements I have him above Floyd and GGG in ATG rankings. Below Pac, RJJ, Hopkins, Duran, Whitaker, Canelo. In terms of ability, skill and completeness he’s the best I’ve ever seen to be honest. To call him an unproven boxer with low key ATG skills? I need some of what you’re smoking. Give credit where it’s due. Lomachenko is a boxing alien, hi-tech was an apt nickname.
     
  8. Betyabeatyaup

    Betyabeatyaup Active Member Full Member

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    This is confusing to me. Why does his number of fights have any relevance to anything? He beat GRJ for a world title in his 3rd fight, it makes zero sense to pretend he’s ‘only’ had 18 pro fights. He also has those multiple weight class achievements with dominant victories at those weight classes.
     
  9. Betyabeatyaup

    Betyabeatyaup Active Member Full Member

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    This is not a valid criticism. The same way Floyd looked lost against Castillo, Maidana. He got outboxed by DLH and Cotto at times and lost plenty of rounds. Is Floyd good at adapting? So how were his struggles against rough boxers any different? People excuse Tank for his performance against Cruz because of his hand (I had Cruz winning), yet call Loma against Lopez an excuse (I had that fight a draw and Loma was clearly the better fighter)? These double standards make no sense. What’s the other ‘loss’ that Lomachenko had? I would hope you’re not appealing to the officiating shambles that was the Salido fight. Dude didn’t even make weight lol.
     
  10. znalniaskas

    znalniaskas Member Full Member

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    Loma is not even the p4p nr. 1 in his homecountry, that's Usyk.
     
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  11. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Realistically he's not among the top 100 all time, unless you count his amateur/Olympic-style career.
     
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  12. Mike Cannon

    Mike Cannon Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Totally agree. keep well.
     
  13. derekcantona

    derekcantona Member Full Member

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    The only mention I made of Floyd Mayweather in my post was to acknowledge that, like Floyd and Pac at Welter and above, he is undersized at the weight. Why does everybody assume that you can only be one massive fan of one boxer? I like watching Lomachenko, I'm very clear on this point.

    Since you're framing this as a Floyd - Lomachenko post, I'll respond in that manner although the thread is supposed to be about Loma and I barely referenced the guy (doing so as much with Pacquiao).

    You're really comparing Salido and Lopez to DLH and Cotto at 154? You don't see the difference in quality here? Of course he got outboxed 'at times', that's what happens when multi-weight champions fight each other at the larger man's preferred weight - very, very rarely do these fights go 12-0 or 11-1, and especially not when you're the smaller man in there. I'm pretty sure Floyd would have preferred both of those guys at 147 and those fights would have been far more one sided at that weight.

    Loma carried a shoulder injury into his fight against Lopez, fine - you do realize that Mayweather had an injury in the Castillo fight too? Zero sympathy then for his poor performance and it's still used as a stick to beat the guy with without context or without acknowledging that Castillo was outclassed in the rematch. Same with Maidana - close fight, outclassed in the rematch. He didn't look 'lost' - he adapted to win enough rounds to get by and then bossed them in rematches that he really didn't have to take but he wanted to prove a point. Why are you using 'loss' in inverted commas for the Salido fight? Loma allowed that fight to go ahead and Salido won the fight. It wasn't a 'loss' - it was a loss. You seriously had Loma beating Lopez?

    Tank isn't spoken about in reverential PFP terms, that's the difference, but he did enough to beat Cruz. Mediocre performance, sure, but Cruz didn't win.
     
  14. Aussie Invader

    Aussie Invader Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    sure you want to run with this?
     
  15. Ioakeim Tzortzakis

    Ioakeim Tzortzakis Active Member Full Member

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    How am I not giving credit where it is due ? That was literally the purpose of my last paragraph.

    He hasn't beaten an actual ATG to prove how great he is, his best opponent in a P4P sense was Rigo, who was 37 years old, coming up 2 entire weight classes, and only had one very good win in his entire resume against Donaire at 122. Yeah Loma dominated him, but that is not a ATG win in the slightest ( Not even one of the best wins of the last few years ), and now suddenly he is better than Floyd ? His entire resume is a collection of just solid-good wins (Campell, Linares, Pedraza, Walters, Rigo, Rusell etc ), nothing more. A low tier ATG like Jake Lamotta, who is far less skilled than Loma at least has wins over Sugar Ray Robinson, Fritzie Zivic, Marcel Cerdan, Bert Lytell and Holman Williams, all of whom are better than anybody Loma fought or beat. If you think Loma deserves to be ranked above Lamotta just because he is more skilled, despite not beating someone anywhere near those guys, then sorry, but you are the one that is smoking something.

    Just because he beat those guys in a few fights doesn't suddenly make them more impressive, it's their quality that matters in the end. Usyk also has had only a few fights just like Loma, but he cleaned out the entire Cruiserweight division (which was stacked with talent, and he is arguably the GOAT there ),then went to HW to beat one of the top 3 Heavyweights there in Joshua and he is just 1 Fury win away from becoming undisputed in 2 divisions. How is Loma beating a few solid champions anywhere near as impressive as what his countryman did ? His skills and him being P4P ranked by most surely is not a good argument.

    Speaking of P4P, using that as a criteria for greatness is an excercise in futility. Most people are too biased to make reasonable P4P lists. Just look at how many people downright refuse to put Canelo in theirs because he is a deck stacking cheater, yet have no problem putting an unproven fighter like Tank Davis there. Or how Lopez who was top 5 in most lists after his win over Loma, got thrown out of the top 10 after he lost to kambosos. The Ring magazine in particular put Fury instead of Kambosos in the top 10 while he was ranked below Lopez before.

    I will say it for hopefully the last time. Loma is the GOAT amateur, he has incredible skills ( could very well be ATG level skills ), but his resume is not ATG level, let alone GOAT.
     
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