Big Guys Who Somehow Lack Physical Strength?

Of course there is a such thing as the general description of bodybuilder numbers. Or powerlifters.
Showing select videos of what a tiny % of people do is absolutely no evidence of what most can achieve-& under what circumstance.
If I put up videos of folks struggling with 1 plate or the bar it also would mean nothing.
Just like showing videos oftop sprinters or Olympic athletes or slam dunk contestants does not show what most can approach.

Also again, besides the bell curve of genetic potential, PEDs can somewhat to massively increase how much someone can lift, or what amount of muscle mass can be obtained.

You put in a few times the amount of male hormone & stack other things in there like precursor hormones, insulin, IGF, HGH...
You *greatly* increase muscle & strength if done well.
You can Google what the natural potentials are-the best scales consier not just height but bone structure-it is very different.
Lyle McDonald & Casey Butts did much work & studies on this.
Me? I never competed in any lifting, nor systematically tried to get my best...But my 355, 395 & 440 likely was not far from my genetic potential.
With the caveat that these #s were without any gear: either drugs that could greatly enhance what I did, or the much smaller percentage if I used any wraps on any joints, any belts, or bench or squat suits.

It is basic physics that none of the top endurance athletes-in any measure of it whatsoever, & regardless of how much compensatory PEDs are taken-including blood doping, transfusions, EPO-have a lot of muscle mass.
Of course muscle is metabolically active & having a lot of it limits VO2 max & endurance progressively.
That is why no world class marathoner or endurance athlese even approaches a modern HW sice-let alone a big weightlifter.

Hell Lance (Ph)Armstrong had great genetics, fanatical training, mucho effective lying & cheating...
But even HE would never have been a huge champion absent the indirect effect of cancer.
Why? He was excellent but not a world beater. But with losing a testicle, he also lost 20 lbs. of muscle mass from his upper boy.
Probably 5'9.5", it was way better to be 160 lbs. max, not 180.
Decathletes need more upper body mass: but NO champions ever were near huge.

I will meet you half way on flexibility: if folks stretch enough they can maintain much of it.
But at a certain amount of mass it will be limited.

 

At the end of the day who cares.

 

No there's not. Bodybuilders are in no way training for maximal strength. At all. Powerlifting and Bodybuilding are two entirely different sports that do not remotely resemble each other. The only similarity is Bodybuilders also use a barbell a lot of times to achieve their goals.

I could keep providing videos. Would you like me to go on? I have yet to meet anyone that is serious and dedicated about their training that hasn't gotten strong af.

Okay.

You sound like you don't know much about proper programming for strength training.

This is all a red herring.

That is a super lopsided total and about confirms my suspicions. These are numbers that most serious lifters achieve after maybe 2 years of consistent training. I'm going to guess you took a lot longer than that to get your lifts there. Do you really think that's close to your genetic potential? That's very strange because I've seen novices achieve those lifts, outside of the bench, after a year of consistent training. You are VERY far from your genetic potential.

Doesn't really change anything.

This is just too much of an unorganized wall of text for me mate.

 

Buddy Baer

 

Jess Willard

 

LOTS of people are really weak in the weight room and undedicated and uneducated all those lifts are within the realms of a hardworking natties potential and have been since the 1890s ffs. Most people honestly just train soft.

 

What you dismissed as unorganized & a wall of text was nothing of the sort.
It was not very long, & I think you have no response to all the specifics that prove how extra mass, actually especially muscle, limits endurance. I could show this in many other sports too-it is undeniable.

Bodybuilding & powerlifting have differenmt goals but there is much overlap.
To claim they are completely dissimilar is patently absurd.
Many recreationally do some of both, & even many pro BBs lift for & measure strength.

You ostentatiously ignored everything I said about PEDs.
These often massively effect genetic potential: I was clearly referring to natural-& lifetime natural-lifters.
These drugs can literally recruit extra nucleii for muscle cells.
You pump in much more testosterone, HGH or other related drugs & potentiators-you get results that are the term you used for me that does not really apply "lopsided".

You also ignored everything I sai about natural strength or muscle mass calculators.
Put in the formulas, then add a percentage for using equipment like wraps & belts, you will see that I was not far from my potential.
Put another way: take 120 lbs. dumbells. I could do 10 reps of chest presses-left hand a couple inches from the bottom, wrists at an angle. I could do the same 10 reps of triceps extentions virtually as far as possible. 12 pullovers about as far as possible (but very close to my head). 17 deadlifts 1ith the 120's with a cheat grip but no reloads.

*Look up* absolutely any natural strength calculator take someone with no more than the high side of average height or bone structure...
You will see this is about the limit.
You will not see that lifetime natural people can do say 20% more & do the same good reps for 150 lbs. DB.
My friend RulesmakeitInteresting here can with chest presses & maybe more-but he confirmed he has a very large bone structure.

I showed you how providing videos of individual cases is as meaningless as me showing them of weak or avrage people.
It is basic logic that showing individual cases does NOT prove any statistical case.
Also you keep ignoring how these folks overwhelmingly used PEDs: which can permnanently change the architecture of muscles.

You have no reason to believe I do not know much about this subject-that was an unsupported premise.
I have read plenty like elite fitness, westsidebarbell websites...But I question your own understanding if you are not aware that some people will NEVER get "as strong AF".
Especially IF they are clean lifetime, have bird bones, low androgen levels (the latter two tend to be statistically correlated).

Please show me anything I wrote that is a "Red Herring".
The undeniable & often huge impact PEDs make is extremely salient to what we are debating.
A smaller point-of course using physical gear changes things-but less.
Everyone who uses them-especially if familiar with them & knowing how to get the most out of them-especially the absurdly rebounding bench & squat suits-gets larger numbers out of using them.

I have been much more specific than you. Again, if you want to discuss this, look at & I will let you cherry-pick *any* natural muscular size or strength calculator.
As long as it is lifetime clean. And consider what gear is allowed if you want to be precise.
Just like you should never accept any form for a lift-although the International powerlifting Association has been referred to as "I'll Pass Anything lol!
Amusing, sometimes a fair critique, but an overstatement.

 

You post too long of unorganized text for me. I don't have the attention span to cipher through your bro science. Everything you talk about in reference to getting stronger hasn't really been based on any solid evidence. Just broscience. You see how I'm responding to your walls of text quote by quote? If you don't want me to just toss aside half of your post then make it in a more organized manner such as this.

Dude if you took part in either one you would see how utterly dissimilar they are. For one bodybuilders completely forsake strength the closer they get to a meet because of the weight cut they go through. A lot of bodybuilders don't even deadlift.

I didn't ignore it. I read it and came to the conclusion that it was a red herring. Look it up.

Online strength and muscle mass calculators are incredibly inaccurate. You don't actually consider those a valid source do you? It's not very difficult to figure out why you keep coming to the incorrect conclusion if that is one of your sources.

Again, theses calculators are aaaaaaalllll bs. They are not reliable sources. At all. It's pretty laughable that you are mentioning them in a serious context. Please stop lmao I'm not going to waste my time anymore talking about them because they're total bs.

You have to consider overwhelming anecdotal evidence. Overwhelming anecdotal evidence is valid data after a reasonable point. I keep telling you to go on reddit and check out r/fitness, r/weightroom, r/powerlifting, r/startingstrength, r/powerbuilding, and plenty more subreddits.

This is such an utterly rare occurrence that I'm not going to respond to it. Did you really think this was relevent to the conversation? An insanely rare genetic occurrence that has nothing to do with the general population.

Go back to where I said that's a red herring then read it. That was what I called a red herring. You have a computer, use it dude.

I have absolutely no idea what you are referring to here. It wasn't anything I said. Please quote what you are referring to in future posts. This unorganized wall of text style of posting is nauseating.

 

With the information available to the world today thanks to the internet and sources like RTS, Barbell Medicine, Elite FTS, Westside and many others it's incredibly easy to get big and strong. You literally have to just eat correctly and follow the programs. I'm willing to bet this guy has been going into the gym doing 3 sets of 10 for the last 20 years along with some machines expecting to reach near his genetic potential.

 

If you are a professional boxer and are trying to be a better professional boxer, then you would not dedicate hours of your day to becoming a better bodybuilder or weightlifter. Just like if you are trying to win an Olympic medal or set a world record in power lifting, then hitting the heavy bag and sparring would make no sense.
If you are looking to accomplish things in boxing through brute force, you probably haven't been well tutored. Even in clinches, a guy that knows how to hold will use a strong guy's strength against him and it will be a weapon to tire him out.

 

1) There is nothing "Bro" science about what I posted.

2) There were paragraphs & it IS organized.

Your deficit in attention span is your own problem-make the effort, respect &my& effort, take the time to actually understand what i wrote & *notice* the actual names & websites I listed & look them up.

3) I enumerated my last reply & do so now: you have even less excuse to not even try.

4) You are factually completely wrong that I have only done 3 sets or mostly machines for years...There was never any reason to assume that.

You cannot argue that say a lifetimes natural, genetically average man will get much beyond (& may not reach), 10 reps with 120 lbs. dumbells-for the chest presses or triceps extentions.
For example, for maximizing arm size when that was a fun goal I went to really high volume, largely in workouts just for them, & using mucho giant & drop sets to develop water sugars capillary mass when strength was about maxed out...
I reached 19" arms (left just under) flexed COLD at mid-late 20% BF.

If I did Creatine, it would have been more.
If I did other real PEDs-it could be a lot more.
But natural for life? That is a little beyond what an average man could achieve.
It is wjat Reg Park did-but he both had somewhat less fat, & a bigger structure than me.
You may have no concept what can be done naturally-& dismiss all the science without reason.
I suspect because you do not want to *face* how much of your & your hero's power & muscle mass might come from drugs.

5) You continually fail to look at what DRUGS & physical gear add.
It is absolutely false that anyone can hit 500 in a squat: the way I am talking about.
WITH wraps on the knees & a squat suit (which is itself artifisial & doing part of your lift), the average dude may approach 500 clean.

Add PEDs, done systematically & effectively for many courses...The average man CAN surpass that.

6) You are insulting & being lazy & hypocritical to not READ what I say-& not care enough to even refer to what you meant by a red herring.
Oh & IF you thought it was beside the point, it is only decent to say why-not responding to a detailed argument is in fact "ignoring" it.
But it is really relevant: since I have always said that i was discussing what is achieveable by the average person NATURALLY.
I am using my computer *more* than you-including diligently going line by line to address your concerns.
You want to be a fair & honest interrogator, do the same.

You have A.D.D., humbly confess that, ASK for an accommodation, be polite...
But no way you could have missed everything I said about drugs & their effects on the body & human potential.

7) You said "again"-no you just mentioned the calculators are B.S.
But it is not being reasonable or making any decent argument at all to merely assert a premise absent evidence.
Or even any rationale WHY. That is called "asserting a premise without evidence". I;logical.

8) I have no problem with considering reddit: IF we are taking into account what & how much gake substances, DRUGS are used.
If it is virtually unlimited, even if the population does not select for success, that does not at all contest what i have been showing is achievable *without* using a great amount & combination of Androgens, HGH, + other potentiators.

8) I do not know why you assume what i have taken part in or not...
Or that somehow I have not known forever about things like bodybuilders may not do DLs, & of course power & max lifts are given up near a competition...

But there are huge similarities & overlap between this & power lifting.
It is completely off-base to either claim that they are utterly different...
Or if I made the crazy claim that these 2 pursuits are completely or almost the same!

Your belief is the extreme, untenable one.
If you reply, no more flippant & patronizing responses where you do the opposite of showing evidence or maturity.

 

Bodybuilding and powerlifting use similar equipment to achieve different goals. The way they're interlinked is simply by virtue that training for strength will often also give muscles a hypertrophy effect, and vice versa.

Technique for powerlifting and bodybuilding can change drastically. Powerlifting is all about moving weight efficiently, whereas bodybuilding is often the opposite to cause the most damage.

I don't see how this is tripping anybody up. And I don't see why this has related to a boxing question like this. Numbers on a weight is just that, a number, if it's not implemented practically. You'll never convince me Joe Frazier could bench press, squat and deadlift more than Deontay Wilder, but he'd easily be able to maul him around in a ring.

 

This dude has a good insight: https://expertboxing.com/why-lifting-weights-wont-increase-punching-power
Very good!

 

Nobody here except the very few people arguing against strength training have brought up bodybuilding or weightlifting. This is a red herring.

The argument being discussed isn't about boxing success through brute force. It is about whether or not strength training benefits boxers, and it does.

 

Your posts the are the very definition of bro science.

Your grammar is ass.

You type like you're trying to make the reader have a stroke.

Ur crap lifetime numbers that you're parading around as being almost unbeatable without drugs lol

I could absolutely not care less about somebody's tricep extension strength level.

Is being really fat with 19 inch arms supposed to be impressive? I knew high schoolers that played video games all day with those stats.

lol

I was going to reply point by point but I quickly realized I've been conversing with somebody that clearly has some sort of mental disorder/disability.