What would have happened if Sonny Liston had kayoed Leotis Matin in 1969?

Assuming Liston would have fought Frazier next like Martin would have if he had not suffered a detached retina against Liston, I think Frazier would have beaten Liston pretty convincingly at that time. Liston was certainly at the end of the line and was not the wrecking machine he once was. Conversely, Frazier was at his best around that time period and his pressure and sheer workrate would have given Liston problems at that point. Prime for prime I would take Liston but in 69' Sonny was done for.

 

Frazier decapitates him.

 

Frazier makes it messy at any point in Listons career.

 

Frazier has the advantage at this point against Liston's career. However I've read some posts that Frazier's camp absolutely forbade him from facing Liston, but I've never seen the direct source it was pulled from.

 

Not hard to see why. High risk. No reward. No organization would touch Liston with a 10 foot pole.

 

I’ve also read that team Frazier steered clear of Liston.

Perhaps a risk/reward calculation but still acknowledging and wary of he risk.

Maybe Joe’s team didn’t go out of the way re bigger punchers - Joe’s scheduling and logistics otherwise might justify the lack of the Lyles and Shavers etc. on his record - but due diligence on the other hand, as Ali displayed, could just as easily seen a broader range of opposition.

Anyway, I would actually rate Sonny a slight chance v Joe.

Liston def. on the decline, slower of hand and foot, some loss of resilience and edge in snappy power.

However, the Martin loss was still a bit of shock, against the tide of the first 6 rds, the outcome alone making Sonny appear even more done than he was

No small credit to Leotis’ courage, demonstrated durability, consistent employment of an educated, hurtful jab and maintained circling to Liston’s right.

In Frazier’s case, Joe was a notorious slow starter, the very early rds being the occasions when Joe was hurt/KD’d more often than not.

Of course we know Joe had one gear - forward - Liston won’t have to chase the incoming Frazier and could time him to great advantage - but Joe’s own speed and bob/weave will stand Joe in good stead.

Prime v prime, Liston held clear stylistic advantages imo - not quite the same as Foreman but definitely some common ground. -strength, power, jab, hooks and uppercuts - obviously not so pronounced in the older version but perhaps sufficient remnants to seriously trouble Joe early - if not put Joe out - Frazier being as tough as Indian runner - he might go down but just as likely bounces back up -

Of course, the longer it goes after say 2 rds or so the already favourable odds on Joe rise even more dramatically. That means Joe has survived the immediate threat and i don’t see a fast tiring Liston himself winning a UD or necessarily surviving to the end with Joe savaging him rd after rd.

All in all, it’s still a fight that would’ve been more than interesting and compelling if it had come off.

 

Great post!

For a time it looked like Sonny would prevail against Martin, scoring a knockdown in the early rounds. His disintegration was quite sudden and dramatic, and he was on the canvas for quite a while. I remember my mother and I watching the fight and she said that if Liston dies she would never watch another boxing match. There were some anxious moments until he revived.

I have also heard that the Frazier camp avoided a Liston match but I agree that it was because of the high risk/low reward factor. We're talking about an early 1970 time frame for the potential Liston title match. There was the upcoming title unification bout with Jimmy Ellis on the horizon and the possibilityof a bout with a comebacking Ali was looming larger, along with the corresponding paydays for each.

Still, a Frazier-Liston bout would nevertheless be interesting at any point.

 

Wow, you saw the fight live with your Mum and remember it? Nice memories all round.

Was your Mum a Liston fan in particular or did she just have a general and natural distaste for serious harm to any fighter?

One thing I didn’t mention was how Liston, incredibly, still accomodated a post fight interview with Cosell who had little filter but wasn’t too bad with Liston on that occasion.

It would’ve been completely understandable if Liston had chosen not to do the interview - many fighters have receded from same for much less reason and justification.

Quite a bit of feeling, introspection and honesty in Sonny’s post fight comments - you could see how disappointed he was but still man enough to see out his obligation and give his take.

 

In his dreams maybe

 

Liston damn near got his head taken off by Frazier's sparring partner. Stop being silly.

 

We usually watched any and all fights on TV back in those days. Moreso than being a Liston fan, Mom didn't like to see anyone seriously harmed and she was genuinely concerned for Liston's well-being as he lay inert on the canvas. We well remembered watching the fight in which Benny "Kid" Paret died following his title fight with Emile Griffith in 1962. (Interestingly both my Mom and Sonny Liston would pass away in 1970.)