Usyk Vs Prime Vitali Klitschko

Not at all.

Usyk has less than 5 fights at HW. That isn't remotely enough data to go by. Vitali was very good at fighting tall, has a great gas tank and a high work rate. Joshua is none of those things.

 

https://gfycat.com/hastybigheartedduckbillcat

Does this man have the skills to beat Usyk ^ I think not

 

You took the words right out of my mouth.
I don’t think it would even be close.

 

Prime Vitali Klitschko or any Vitali Klitschko is a big, big problem.
His "defeats" are intresting:
1. arm, elbow, or shoulder
2. cut (cuts)
and both times he was better by points.
Prime Vitaly Klitschko retired, and then returned at age 37 to make 9 title defenses.
On this forum almost 80% voted to defeat his brother Wladimir (and I voted too).
Of course we wil newer know because they didn't fight each other (they didn't fight Valuev either).
It seems to me that he sacraficed his ATG career for the sake of his brother; who knows?
I will not predict Usyk Vs prime Vitali, it is ungrateful.
Boxing is first a bussines and then a sport; unfortunately.

 

You didn't explicitly say they didn't count, but you dismissed them twice, and now three times.

No, it isn't a different ball game. Cruiserweights who rehydrated to 215/220 are heavyweights. They've just slapped a different name on them. You wouldn't say Rivas isn't a heavyweight for all intents and purposes would you? After all, he doesn't fight at heavyweight. He fights at bridgerweight.

Usyk has beaten far more heavyweights than Spinks ever did. And he's beaten far better fighters than Vitali ever did.

 

If he beat 215-220 pound guys, then he beat heavyweights. Do the 190-215 pound men that Frazier or Liston beat count as heavyweights? Because if you aren't going to count the 215-220 pound men that Usyk beat as heavyweights because of an arbitrary label, then how can you count Liston's win over 215 pound Cleveland Williams or 190 something pound Floyd Patterson and Eddie Machen and Zora Folley and Roy Harris as him beating "heavyweights"? They are smaller than the so called cruisers that Usyk beat by 20-25 pounds. Fifteen pounds at the least.

In truth, with day before weigh ins and modern weight cutting methods, many of the men Liston beat could squeeze their way into light heavyweight.

 

No, I'm dismissing your notion that beating cruiserweights means you can beat one of the most dominant h2h super heavyweights.

If you're going to change the rules to upgrade Usyk's cruiser opponents to HW status I can upgrade Vitali and several of the names on his resume to super heavy weight status. Modern super heavies are not the same as traditionally sized 205-220 pound old school heavies. Different ball game.

Not once did I say Usyk's opponents were bad. They were obviously more skilled than Vitali's. But Vitali was totally dominant over the majority of his opponents. It's not like he went life and death with the likes of Peter, Areola, or Chisora, he made it look easy. You have also failed to address how Vitali was an expert at fighting tall making the most of his height and reach, he wasn't some lumbering giant lacking skill like a Willard. Who did Usyk beat who fought remotely similar and knew how to fight tall?

 

The difference is Usyk's opponents had to obey a certain weight limit. Frazier won his first title beating a man who was dozens of lbs heavier.

Vitali's era they do the complete opposite and attempt to become as large as possible to impose their size. The tactics and game plan are totally different compared to what Usyk is used to.

I was never disputing the fact many cruisers are the size of traditional heavies. My point was that you can't gloss over the fact Usyk has faced less than 5 men who don't have to be concerned with cutting weight. It makes a significant difference, especially because Vitali was very good at using his size and difficult to outbox.

 

No, before I had even posted in this thread, you'd already dismissed what Usyk had done at cruiserweight. You said: "Both of their resumes are a bit too thin to give a definitive answer. Especially Usyk whose had less than 5 HW fights."

I'm not 'changing the rules' All I'm saying is that Usyk had beaten better fighters than Vitali, and that you shouldn't dismiss those at cruiserweight because they're essentially heavyweights. You feel free to upgrade Vitali in whatever way you want. I couldn't give a **** about whether or not Chris Arreola or Derek Chisora file under heavyweight or super heavyweight. In all honesty, we both know everyone over 200lbs, in this era, is a heavyweight. And really, everything over 190 should be considered a heavyweight.

Also, I haven't once argued Usyk would beat Vitali, so I don't know why you're confronting me a strawman.

 

Sure, but the guys he beat were 215-220 pounds on fight night. I mean, we'll pit Liston against guys like Tyson (both Mike and Fury), Bowe, the K2 Brothers and modern sized heavies when he is as unproven against heavies as Usyk is. Because if Usyk beat several men who are 215+ pounds on fight night and he is unproven against heavies, then you have to say the same thing about Sonny Liston who's best win was against a 195 pound Floyd Patterson and many of his best opponents were under 200 pounds on fight night and Cleveland Williams was as large as the guys that Usyk has routinely beaten.

So by the same metrics, if we had a Sonny Liston vs Vitali Klitschko thread, one could say that Liston is unproven vs heavyweights. We could actually say that Jack Dempsey or Max Baer is more proven against modern sized heavies since they both did win the title from Klitschko sized opponents.

If cruisers were 176-200 lbs on fight night, like they are supposed to be, then one would have a point saying that Usyk is unproven vs heavyweights. The cruiserweight division was originally made for 176-200 pound men. Men larger than light heavies but smaller than modern sized heavies. Not 215 pound heavies who want to squeeze into another weight class.

 

Vitali via UD in a lackluster bout which he looks bad in. Looks similar to the Byrd fight. Vitali was far ahead on the scorecards against Byrd before his shoulder got injured. If his shoulder is intact, he beats Usyk.

 

There is a difference between me outright dismissing what Usyk did at cruiserweight, and me saying that his resume at HW is too thin. Ive tried to make this very clear about 4x now. It is a fact that he has less than 5 fights at HW where there are no weight restrictions. Stating that he did enough at cruiser to prove that his thin HW resume doesn't matter is a matter of opinion.

Ok. If Usyk's opponents get upgraded to HW because of rehydration, then Vitali is still 1-2 weight classes higher than the vast majority of Usyk's opponents. We're right back where we started. When there is no weight limits, it changes the sort of tactics you can use. You are also less likely to run into 6'7 behemoths who can use their size to their advantage at cruiserweight because they all have to follow the same weight restrictions.

I didn't create a straw man. I asked you a question. You obviously think Usyk's resume is good enough so I'm asking you who on his resume gives you the idea he could be competitive? Not giving an answer as to who you think would win doesn't change the fact you stated emphatically that Usyk's cruiser resume is good enough.

 

Usyk and Vitali are both outliers in their attributes. I feel Usyk is p4p better than Vits but Vitali was just brilliant at squeezing out every advantage from his size. His busy style would make it hard for Usyk to make him commit to single big shots that he could then exploit, and his chin is simply superb. On the other hand Vitali never fought a guy that moves as well as Usyk or who can work his way in and out of the shooting range of a big heavy without getting hit, like Usyk. If I had to pick I'd pick Vitali because he's so proven at the weight but ... but for all we know Usyk is still to do his best work.

 

The difference is Liston's opponents did not have to be concerned with cutting weight. Cutting weight makes you weak more often than not, especially if you wait to long to do it and then have to burn this extra lbs off a few days before the fight. Liston also fought in a 15 round era where not watching your diet could be suicidal.

But essentially yes, you could argue that there isn't a lot of data to make conclusive claims for Liston against super heavies. Tyson was shorter than Liston and they usually weighed the same so I have no idea why you brought him up. I will add that Bowe, Lewis, and the K brothers all struggled with fighters similar in size to Liston but that is often overlooked. Vitali never struggled with an Usyk sized fighter outside of a freak injury.

My main point was that Usyk has yet to face a super heavy who uses his size to his advantage. Joshua's a good win, but he didn't press the issue or fight tall at all. He showed a lot of hesitation and mental fragility that likely wouldn't be present in a match with Vitali. I refuse to overlook x factors like these.

 

This is a reasonable way to see it. People are glossing over the tactics Vitali uses while bashing his resume. If Usyk can beat a guy who has even 50% of Vitali's ability to fight tall then we can talk. Until then, it's difficult to say how Usyk would handle it. It doesn't matter how good his opponents at cruiser were unless at least one of them could fight tall.