Usyk Vs Prime Vitali Klitschko

There's also a difference between saying his heavyweight résumé is too thin, and refusing to even acknowledge these wins at CW. If you were acknowledging these wins, you wouldn't have said Usyk's résumé is thin. You actually specified Usyk's résumé is thinner than Vitali's because he hadn't had more than five fights at heavyweight.

No, if you stood Usyk, Huck, Briedis, Bellew and Gassiev next to the vast majority of Vitali's opponents, they're wouldn't be any serious size difference if at all. So no, in the vast majority of instances Vitali's opponents wouldn't be 1-2 weight classes higher. The anomalies would, but that's besides the point. I'm not arguing Vitali's opponents weren't bigger, I'm arguing they weren't better and that Usyk's fights at cruiserweight shouldn't just be washed away.


You created a strawman. You're arguing that Usyk's opposition isn't preparation for Vitali, I've never said otherwise. Also, why would you say this: "You have also failed to address how Vitali was an expert at fighting tall making the most of his height and reach" if you weren't arguing with me about Vitali vs Usyk? I haven't made a pick in this thread, so why would I address this?

I'll make this plain and simple. Do you think Usyk's best wins are better than Vitali's?

 

1) because it is thinner at HW. It's comparable to Spinks and I stand by that. If Usyk beat a guy remotely similar in size to Vitlai who could also fight tall Imwoudk change my stance. If his cruiserweight resume has a guy that fits that description then it would be relevant.

2) a lot of them were better. But many of Usyk's opponents were shorter and lighter in weight and had to cut weight. Thus the tactics they can use are different. Most crucially, none of them that I'm aware of fought anything like Vitali or had his height/reach.

3) you didn't have to say those things. Am I not allowed to make an observation? Me stating that his cruiser opponents didn't prepare him for a hypothetical Vitali fight doesn't mean that I'm staying you said otherwise. The thread is Usyk vs Vitali. If you're not interested in addressing the logistics of the matchup, why are you here?

4) Usyk's best wins are p4p greater than Vitali's. If that's all you wanted to know, it doesn't change how the matchup plays out whatsoever.

 

If Liston's best opponents cut weight, they would be closer in size to light heavies. The cruiserweight division was originally made for the Pattersons, Machens, Folleys and Roy Harrises of the world. Men who weighed between 176 and 200 pounds in the ring. Prime heavyweight Evander Holyfield was around the same size as the "cruiserweights" that Usyk has beaten.

And I brought up Mike Tyson as in he is much more proven against this larger generation of heavyweights than Liston ever was. I even routinely see people claim that Liston hit harder than Mike Tyson, but Tyson's punching power was proven against modern sized heavies. With Liston, it's an unknown about how his punching power would affect world class modern sized heavies.

As for Usyk, his best win came against a 6'6 245 pound skilled world champion. Liston's best win was against a 6'0 194 pound skilled world champion. Just that there would make Usyk more proven at heavyweight.

 

Thus meaning, Usyk's résumé is not thinner than Vitali's.

That is all I was getting at.

 

At HW it is.

 

Which was never my point.

And against heavyweights, no it's not.

 

1) it was common for heavies in the 60's and 70's to cut weight for stamina and speed (voluntarily. What they weighed against Liston was usually them in their absolute best shape and were already cutting weight, so no they would not be light heavies. The other crucial difference is the trainers and fighters picked their own target weight where they felt the fighter would be at their best. Usyk's opponents all had to stick to the same target weight.

2) Tyson being more proven than Liston against large heavies would be a non factor in a match between the two. They'd be the same weight in their primes.

3) of you think Usyk is more proven against super heavies than Liston I won't even argue. That still doesn't change the fact Joshua didn't fight like Vitali.

 

Yes it is. In no universe is 3 fights a proven track record for a weight class. Vitali's best win isn't as good as Usyk's at heavy, but he has far more depth in terms of sheet quantity and faced a wider variety of styles. That cannot be argued.

 

People will say that Liston has a deeper HW resume than Usyk, despite the fact that Liston's best opponents were under 200 pounds on fight night. And Cleveland Williams was no bigger than the men that Usyk routinely beats. Liston's best win came against 6'0 194 pound Floyd Patterson.

If you were to say that Marciano hit harder than Mike Tyson, lots of posters would be ready to crucify you. Citing that Rocky's punching power was displayed against sub 200 pound opponents. But will claim that Liston hit harder than Mike Tyson. But if we compare Liston's best opponents and Marciano's best opponents, they're the same average size.

 

The 215 pound cruisers of today are typically in very good shape. Are you telling me that Patterson or Machen would be 220 pounds and not be blobs of fat? And back then, weigh ins were typically done hours before the fight. So was Liston fighting 215-220 pound guys that drained themselves to 195 pounds just hours before the bout? I would need proof of that. Plus like you said, cutting weight weakens you, so why would his opponents cut a significant amount of weight just right before they got into the ring?

 

No, it's not.

Usyk has been facing heavyweights in weight since 2013.

And these heavyweights are better than the ones Vitali beat.

The name cruiserweight, doesn't change the fact that were heavyweights in the ring.

 

The name cruiserweight changes the category of the opponents. They were not heavyweights.

 

For the record, I never said Liston hits harder than Tyson. Maybe with the jab and right cross, but I wouldn't argue relentlessly for pages against someone who thinks Tyson hit harder.

My criticism of Rocky has less to do with the weight of his opponents and more to due with their age and very shopworn condition. Rocky himself wasn't very large and wasn't picking on guys way smaller either.

I never suggested the typical cruiser today are out of shape slobs or skinny weaklings.

No, I'm not saying Patterson and Machen would be 220 pound chiseled chads if they didn't cut weight. I was addressing your claim that Listons opponents would be the size of light heavyweighs it they cut weight which is a strange claim to make. They were already cutting weight to get to 195-206 range and were in excellent shape. Sure they could have weighed less of they wanted to, but it would not benefit them. If anything, such training would probably be overdoing it and they might get weaker shedding an additional 20 lbs which would be pointless since in a division with no weight limit and the average opponents are 195-205 lbs.

They were probably around 205-212 for their walk around weight. You also have to look at their schedules. I wasn't suggesting most of Listons opponents were doing insane 20+ pound weight cuts before every match. They were just following the conventional wisdom of the time to stay in shape and not have a beer gut or huge oxygen draining muscles.

 

No, the new name slaps a new name on them. Being 215-220 makes you a heavyweight.

Usyk's résumé is better than Vitali's. It's obvious.

 

What resume? Three fights at heavy? Vital fought blown up cursers too. Hide and Norris. Remember them? They lasted a combined three rounds. Vitaly takes this one easily.