Leonard vs Hagler | WHO REALLY WON | Film study

correction: Ray’s win was ALL about a deteriorated Hags

Understand?

because if it wasn't, Ray would have showed us all in 1982 when he invited Hagler to his big announcement

I guess he wanted to give the impression he had what it took to face off with him

but cold feet got the better of him

Tim Ryan "Sugar Ray said Hagler had lost A LOT of speed. He said he was COUNTING on the slowness of Hagler"

which would explain why he did better against Hagler than Terry Norris

why he looked awesome vs Duran and like crap vs. Terry Norris

Why he did so much better vs Lalonde, Kalule and other assorted mediocrities and failed in the Norris fight

why he feared risking his WBC middleweight title and so abandoned it rather than risk a fight against younger talent ie; Tate, Nunn

can you connect the dots now or is more help needed?

 

I’ve already connected the dots - and they spell BIAS in huge letters.

Again, you are skipping numerous counter points that erode your arguments. It seems you have NO appreciation of the effects of age/inactivity - or at least not on both sides of the ledger. Straight up - 82 Ray would’ve kicked Norris’ a** - out sped him, out boxed him and then knock him out.

87 Ray was s-l-o-w-e-r than 82 Ray. Capiche? No one is a-r-g-u-i-n-g that Marv had slowed down a bit. At any rate, Tim Ryan and Gil Clancy are suddenly the Yodas of boxing - their each and every word the universal truth - okay - both afforded Ray put on an AMAZING display - was it deterioration or just plain dumb that Marv opened as a righty - just like he did v Mugabi for a few rds which he lost, only to see him do so much better as a righty?

Yep, file that under yet another question you won’t answer lest it impugn your position.

Leonard’s WASN’T KO’d in sparring. From Ray himself, he got hit and was out on his feet, covered up the extent of his condition and saw the rd out. Get out your big eraser - you can rub that DOT out.

Clearly you’re only deferring to what YOU want to believe and/or suits your argument - certainly not literal facts.

I know these points are breaking down your argument - so you just ignore them.

Even your word choice is heavily weighted on one side - Marvin is “cautious” v little Roberto Duran but natural WW Ray has “cold feet” in the face of bigger, stronger MW Hagler - who couldn’t put Ray down - through he did connect solidly on Ray’s chin - you know, power being the last thing to go

I think it rankles you most that Ray BEAT 4-1 fave Hags H2H - with a sterling resume in tow at his natural weight and several above and beyond achievements in upper weight divisions - - including Hags own scalp - upper division successes that Hags didn’t have.

What do you do then? You try to unjustifiably tear Ray’s career down to compensate.

 

Not only is this taking a lot on trust,its also unecessarily abrasive.
Leonard was washed up, 43 years old, and hadn't fought for 14 months when he fought Norris.That's why he lost ,any other projection is just BS bias!

 

Hagler was a pretty big favourite to beat Leonard.
But Leonard was a pretty big favourite to beat Norris, to be fair.

A lot of people, myself included, think Hagler won against Leonard.
Nobody thinks Leonard won against Norris.

Other than that, red rooster does talk rubbish. I do wonder if he's a Leonard fanatic sometimes, planting ridiculous criticism of SRL to discredit and drown any moderate or reasonable criticism of some aspects of SRL's career.

 

I'm sorry but you lose

Who am I to believe; according to you, you say hagler had slowed down "a bit"

or do I believe the very source himself, Ray Leonard who did not say "a bit" but instead used "a lot" adding that he "was counting on the slowness of Hagler"

and this debate is over. all else is a sham

I was also curious as to the timing. Why the sudden interest in taking a fight he had no interest in before?

regarding the sparring session in which Leonard was knocked out. This was news to me as well and read it as recently as three months ago and went into great detail. I also remember reading about it around the time of the actual fight. I see no reason why I should take your word over theirs. Which means, Ray Leonard was knocked out

 

I dont want to enflamean already sensitive issue but that's what they said before the Norris fight

you therefore have no choice but to say such things as "It seems you have NO appreciation of the effects of age/inactivity - or at least not on both sides of the ledger." if you're going to defend him.

The way you tell it, Ray Leonard was dragged kicking and screaming against his will and had weights attached to both ankles.

perhaps the larger ring size worked against him this time?

As much as it galls the blood, we must give credit where credit is due, to Mr. Norris who turned in brilliant performance, following the strategic fight plan of team Norris.

It was the most one sided contest in professional sports since SuperBowl 24 and one that history will surely take note of

 

Does that mean prime Mike Tyson couldn't beat Danny Williams, prime Larry Holmes couldn't beat Brian Nielsen, prime Bernard Hopkins couldn't beat Joe Smith Jr., prime Roy Jones Jr. couldn't beat Dennis Lebedev? By your logic all those all time greats lose at any stage of their careers "because seeing is believing." In judging any athlete's performance in any sport it is of necessity you look at his or her age and at what stage of their career he or she is in. If age and /or inactivity are of no moment then athletes can play at a peak level until they drop.

 

He probably could have but that doesnt apply to Ray Leonard here based on prior performance

Had he lost to the leadfooted Duran or struggled to win, then I would side with you

but that's not what happened because Ray actually dominated him and did so by moving, and boxing. Ray showed he hadn't lost a step

he had not lost ANY of the rounds, and that means I am forced into disagreeing with you since seeing is believing

This means that going into his fight with Norris, if he HAD slipped, that slippage would be negligible

and let's not forget that Leonard had the edge in championship experience

the fight was just a blowout for Norris and since it was so overwhelmingly in his favor, I cant understand what it is about Terry's dominance that would lead anyone to believe leonard could ever have an easy time with him.

this fight was settled without question

Just so you dont get the impression I am any kind of Norris fan, I dont believe Ray would have done any better against Camacho either

I hate to tell you this but i'd say that Leonard is just a bit overrated by some fans

 

So I just want to get you on the record. Does it or does it not matter what stage of their careers two competitors are when they meet? There is no world in which Danny Williams beats a Prime Mike Tyson.

 

ALL that you’ve used to suggest Hags was well deteriorated in the course of his fighting Leonard is, at the very least, EQUALLY applicable to the belief that Ray himself was well deteriorated in the course of his fighting Norris.

ALL that you’ve TRIED to use to suggest that Leonard was still more than viable PRIOR to facing Norris is EQUALLY applicable to Marvin PRIOR to his facing Ray.

Not confined to but including: performance in LAST fight prior to and the ODDS set for BOTH fights in question.

As I said previously, an extreme case of DUAL treatment heavily tipped in Hags favour.

So Leonard’s performance was GREAT v a “lead footed” (your words) Duran? That’s a contrary conclusion. Duran was awfully slow and listless, Ray was simply better than that but not great or even very good. Despite his own disrepair, Roberto even managed to cut Ray’s mouth and open a gash with a big right hand in the latter stages. Clear slippage on the part of both men.

You defer to commentary, right? During Leonard v Norris, Ferdie Pacheco stated “What you’re seeing is an OLD fighter who has no legs or reflexes left”. Correct but Ferdie was also stating the bleeding obvious.

So they went into great detail re this sparring KO of Leonard but curiously YOU don’t pass on this detail. I’ll kick start you - the spar partner in question was Quincy Taylor - and repeat, Ray was not KO’d - erroneously believing and/or falsely stating that he was simply suits your agenda.

I don’t think you’re understanding that no one is arguing against the fact that Marv was quite deteriorated v Ray - Ray was wholly transparent re the timing and associated assessment of Hags slip from prime status - there’s no hidden variable or argument there either.

As such, what has been argued against otherwise is NOT discredited or made any less valid for the fact of Hags obvious slippage - a slippage that while evident to a degree v Mugabi was that much worse again v Leonard - a real time fact which could ONLY be exactly determined during the course of the fight v Leonard and not before - BUT Ray should still receive due credit for his own performance and it’s not as if a younger Hags didn’t encounter issues with a smaller, clever boxer before, read: Roberto Duran - and Ray was also inspired and that much better informed by Roberto’s performance.

I’m not trying to “win” (although, as an incidental by product of “as you go” discussion, I am doing a damn fine job of it ).

Of course Ray didn’t beat a prime Hags - prime v prime, at 160 lbs, natural MW Marv beats natural WW Leonard. Ray winning the MW title from Hags didn’t mean Ray was an ATG MW nor did it obligate him to continue fighting in the division - remember, Hags himself didn’t make one upper division foray - Leonard’s win over Marv simply was what it was - and it was still a great achievement in due context.

No sensitivities here, just a friendly, spirited debate but we’ve probably covered off on all we’re ever going to and you still won’t answer any questions

 

I'm sorry sir but this case has already been closed.

 

True. It should never have gone to court. Maybe you should’ve opted for the plea bargain. You can’t win ‘em all. I wish you better luck next time.

 

Re: Duran Hagler lll neither man was close to their peak. Ray fought a cautious fight and the Vegas crowd was restless. Ray tried to trade and got his mouth and eye busted. I don't know what any of this has to do with the contention Hector beats a Prime Ray.

 

DRAW

 

Totally agree. Ray relatively better but both well beyond their salad days. I must say, if the right hand that busted Ray’s eye was that bit lower, on the chin - I think it would’ve at least put Ray over….nice punch by Roberto..IIRC commentator Gil Clancy mistakenly put Ray’s freshly cut eye down to a head butt - but co commentator Marv H. correctly put it down to a punch in real time - Clancy only came to the party after the slow motion replay - no mea culpa.

I thought Hags call throughout was very astute and on the money - Clancy, playing the role of wisened old trainer, kept trying to contradict Marvin’s observations as if Hags knew nothing about the game - ridiculous.