the what fights did you watch today\scorecard thread.

I did Holmes-Spoon sometime a little while back. I’ll try to find it and repost it here to compare with yours when you do it.

I’d also like to see what you think about Norton-Young.

 

D, we had the same questions on this bout. This is what I wrote when I scored it:

Daniel Zaragoza v Carlos Zarate

I always wanted to see this to see what Carlos Zarate had left in the tank. There was some fuel but not like in his heyday. He was competitive in several rounds but Zaragoza was younger, speedier and was winning on workrate, although every so often Zarate would get in a good lead right, just not many. No sense in running a card here. I gave every round to Zaragoza with the exception of the 3rd which I scored even. Also there was a point deduction from Zaragoza in the 7th, which I have no clue why for a score of 89-82 when it was stopped in the 10th for Zaragoza (actual scores 88-81, 88-81 and 87-82 all for the winner). I'll give plaudits to Referee Vince Delgado for pulling Zarate out of there after a jarring lead left from Zaragoza. One might say an early stoppage, but he was starting to come apart at the seams and Carlos didn't complain.

 

Your opening observation about the perception of the fight being not that close and then rewatching it and scoring it close resonates with me as that is exactly how I experienced it. First time I watched it, I thought Holmes won it comfortably, but I didn’t score it. When I rewatched it I ended up scoring it by one point to Holmes too. I think that Holmes gets off to such a good start that it felt Norton had too much to make up and at times I felt he wasn’t aggressive enough, but scoring it round by round is different from an overall impression of the fight you might get. So I always felt Holmes deserved the win but yeah, very close on the cards (as the judges had it too).

Re the last round, I think I scored it even but yes, I think you’re right that Norton won the majority of the round and Holmes’ big rally at the end may have clouded my view of that. An interesting one to score in that regard is Gomez-Pintor round 12 which sees Gomez largely in control before Pintor comes back over the last minute (I think I did a thread about that one somewhere).

Anyway, great review and looking forward to seeing your Holmes-Spoon card.

 

Taylor vs Davis

I remember when this fight was announced and Davis was seen as a slight favourite and really loaded up on the trash talk and the bad blood.

Taylor really did a number on him here, he looked a level above both up close and at range.

His jab looked phenomenonal, almost a power punch the way he leveraged it.

Davis had one little bit of success at the end of round 6 but Taylor soon halted his momentum with a huge right hook that Davis beat the count for, but ultimately quit on his stool.

 

Awright, dude, who are we talking about here? At first I thought it was Meldrick Taylor against Howard Davis until you mentioned quitting on the stool.

 

I thought it was Josh Taylor vs Ohara Davis but it's not.

 

Larry Holmes vs Tim Witherspoon

1 Holmes
2 Witherspoon
3 Holmes
4 Holmes
5 Holmes
6 Holmes
7 Witherspoon
8 Witherspoon
9 Witherspoon
10 Witherspoon
11 Holmes
12 Holmes

115-113 Holmes

So watching this fight again years later my mind hasn't changed that much i still felt Larry Holmes was a clear winner. I even gave Witherspoon some of the close debatable rounds 2 and 8.

But anyway the way i see the first 6 rounds was similar to Norton/Holmes. Although Holmes wasn't winning them rounds quite as convincingly as he did in the Norton fight. But he was still doing more punching and landing the jab than Witherspoon who for me just coasted too much for long periods in the rounds, althought i did give Witherspoon the 2nd round because i liked his body punching in that round.

But apart from that i couldn't see a round to give to Witherspoon in the first 6 rounds, i remember the 5th round being somewhat competitive. But Holmes in the first 6 rounds was just more active than Witherspoon landing the jab, while Witherspoon was just following Holmes around the ring not punching.

The 7th round Witherspoon finally picked up the pace similar to how Norton did vs Holmes. And he landed some solid shots in the 7th the only round i felt Witherspoon won convincingly to that point, the 8th round was competitive and i could see an argument for Holmes. But just like the 2nd round i liked Witherspoon's body punches in that round.

We all know about the famous 9th round which is comparable to Norton/Holmes 15th round. Where Norton dominated most of the round and thenHolmes comeback towards the end an amazing round but a round Witherspoon clearly won.

I thought Witherspoon edged the 10th round but not alot happened apart from Witherspoon's Ali impression.

But for me the last 2 rounds Holmes clearly out punched and did more work than Witherspoon who for me just coasted the last 2 rounds and did nothing.

It just amazes me that after Witherspoon had his best round of the fight in the 9th round he virtually did nothing after that round. And was more interested in doing his Ali impression rather than really taking it to the champion.

I just can't see how you can have Witherspoon winning this fight he coasted too much for long periods in this fight. You can't lose majority of the first 6 rounds and then give away the last 2 rounds doing an Ali impression and expect to take the title away from the champion.

Overall i enjoyed the fight alot i really enjoyed the tactical aspect of the fight. But i think it's overrated as a controversial decision, i even gave Witherspoon the benefit of the doubt giving him 2 debatable rounds and Holmes was still a clear winner on my card. So my mind hasn't changed much on this in all honesty.

One last point the commentary was terrible some of the most biased commentating i've heard in some time. Angelo Dundee didn't call 1 good moment from Holmes instead he was too busy drooling over Witherspoon who he thought reminded him of Archie Moore, Ken Norton, Sugar Ray Robinson, his words not mine.

 

Just out of curiosity has anyone seen Larry Holmes vs Jesse Ferguson ? i thought this fight was one of the more interesting fights Holmes had in his comeback, Ferguson almost stopped Holmes in the 2nd. And run him fairly close on the scorecards, this is how i have Holmes's close decisions.

Holmes vs Witherspoon 115-113 Holmes
Holmes vs Norton 143-142 Holmes
Holmes vs Williams 143-143 Draw
Holmes vs Spinks 1 Spinks winning
Holmes vs Spinks 2 Holmes winning
Holmes vs Nielsen Holmes winning
Holmes vs Ferguson Holmes winning
Holmes vs McCall McCall winning by 1 or 2 rounds if i remember rightly
Holmes vs Harris i thought Harris clearly won this.

I also heard Holmes had another close encounter vs Quinn Navarre although i've never seen it.

 

Josh Taylor vs Ohara Davies.

Josh dropped him with a right hook, Davies got back up but then decided enough was enough and turned his back on him forcing the ref to jump in.

 

Anyone see or know where I can watch Obed Sullivan vs Sam Hampton? It was on Tuesday Night Fights back in the day and I remember it being pretty wild

 

I haven't seen it, but did enjoy Fergusons late career resurgence. A talented fringe contender.

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=vec...ate=ive&vld=cid:ebe501b8,vid:usd8vlcRoHU,st:0

 

Here’s my capsule of Gomez-Pintor round 12 when I scored it last month:

12. Gomez 10-9: Wilfredo hammers Lupe with a big right that staggers him back to the ropes and unloads everything he has, but can’t quite get Pintor out of there; Pintor weathers the storm and Gomez looks completely punched out; Lupe takes over and does some great body work, finishes strong but the big punch and rally edges it for Gomez. Another fantastic round.

 

Here’s my account from June of 2020:

Larry Holmes (c) vs. Tim Witherspoon

May 20, 1983, at Dunes Hotel and Casino Outdoor Arena in Las Vegas, 12 rounds for Holmes’ WBC heavyweight championship

Holmes comes in 42-0 (30) weighing 213, while Witherspoon is 15-0 (11) and 219 1/2. Both stand 6-foot-3. This is Holmes’ 15th defense (!). The Easton Assassin is 33 years old; Terrible Tim is 25.

Round 1: Holmes 10-9 (close, could be even)
Round 2: Holmes 10-9 (again, close and possibly even)
Round 3: Witherspoon 10-9 (body work takes the round)
Round 4: Holmes 10-9 (the champion goes flat-footed, closes the distance and establishes his jab)
Round 5: Holmes 10-9 (a couple of nice combinations)
Round 6: Holmes 10-9 (that jab)
Round 7: Holmes 10-9 (close, could go either way, great exchanges)
Round 8: Witherspoon 10-9 (‘Spoon starts to get busy)
Round 9: Witherspoon 10-9 (an all-time heavyweight round as Terrible Tim hurts Holmes, who storms back late)
Round 10: Holmes 10-9 (on his toes boxing)
Round 11: Holmes 10-9
Round 12: Holmes 10-9
My card: Holmes 117-111

Outcome: Holmes retains by split decision. Official cares are 118-111, 115-113, 114-115

Witherspoon’s cross-arm defense gave Holmes trouble and he had a couple of rounds where he landed big punches (the seventh and ninth, which I split between the fighters on my card) but Holmes works a full 3 minutes every round and Witherspoon goes too long without punching in so many of these rounds (before the seventh his corner is begging him to let his hands go). There’s stretches where Holmes throws like 8 jabs over 30-45 seconds and lands 2 cleanly and another one or two partially ... but Witherspoon doesn’t even throw a punch in that span. It happens too often.

Great fight, very competitive, and that’s another point I want to make: a fighter can win every round (say 120-108 in a 12-round fight) and it can be a razor-close fight ... but if he wins every round by the thinnest of margins then he wins by a wide margin on the cards. A lot of people don’t get that. As a judge you can’t say ‘well I gave Fighter A the last round and it was pretty close but I thought he deserved it, so I’m going to give this round to Fighter B even though I thought Fighter A edged it too.’ Not how it works.

Fun fight and I can see how people might score it closer, but to me it’s a stretch to give it to Witherspoon.

This content is protected

 

Even if we differ on some rounds, it seems like you had same thoughts as I did.

Larry Holmes was working for 3 minutes of the round, whilst Witherspoon went long periods without throwing anything.

I like Witherspoon as a fighter, and he seems like a great guy aswell. But he gave away too many early rounds, and he clowned about too much in championship rounds.

Like I said I think this is overrated as a controversial decision. And I think people who watched it live on TV at the time, may of been swayed by Angelo Dundee's horrible biased commentary.

Norton and Williams have strong cases beating Holmes, but Witherspoon not so much IMO.