Max Baer in the post-Ali unification tournament

Baer seems to get massively over rated by some on here and i think his win over Schmeling, whilst it looks like his best win on paper, Schmeling looked even worse than Baer that night and i would back the german to win if they had fought again. Hell, i would fancy Carnera to win a rematch as well.
As for Baer's title win over Primo, the footage is comical - the sort of stuff one would see in a Buster Keaton movie. Total lack of skills.

Maxie was a decent puncher with a good chin and for his era had physical/size advantage over a lot of his opponents but the chances of him being able to deal with the relentless pressure of a Bonavena or Frazier are wafer thin. His best chance would be against Patterson, who could be vulnerable against punchers but i would only give Maxie a 20/30% chance there as his skill set was so poor

 

Perhaps I need to clarify my stance.

I am not saying that the two eras were equal, but I would be surprised if there was not considerable overlap, between the top ten when Baer won the title, and the top ten when Frazier won the title.

The difference between the two eras, probably comes down to three fighters, namely Ali, Foreman, and Frazier himself.

I will call them the big three for ease of reference.

I don't think that there was anybody as good as the big three during Baer's career, with the sole exception of Louis.

However Max Schmeling was arguably better than anybody of Frazier's time, with the exception of the big three.

He was also arguably better than some of the men who beat the big three.

As for the men in the tournament like Martin, Quarry, and Ellis, you could probably have found half a dozen fighters from Baer's era, who were on the same sort of level give or take.

This all means that we have to take Baer seriously, based on the fact that he proved himself to be the top heavyweight of that era.

It also means that he almost certainly didn't get there, by having just a big right hand and not much else.

 

Not sure about Martin .. He would beat up Bonavena who would **** him off enough to make Max mad .. Quarry dices him for a decision as Max was made to order for Jerry ...If motivated he may blow out an older Patterson although I wouldn't bet it .. Frazier destroys him ..

 

Schmeling vs Baer is similar to Machen vs Ingo in the sense that it would be very hard to believe that a rematch would look exactly the same or assuming that the more technical boxers (Schmeling and Machen) wouldn't be able to make some sort of adjustment.

 

Ok, even if for the sake of argument there is an overlap between the top 10 guys in Baer's era and Frazier's, you still should mention which of those guys Baer beats that stacks up to Mathis, Ellis, quarry, Machen, etc.

As good as Schmeling was, I don't think a single win over Schmeling is equal to 3 of those boxers, let alone all 4, and certainly not if we count the rematches Frazier had with Ellis and quarry.

Frazier has both quality and quantity over Baer regardless. And his signature best win is leagues ahead of Baer's. You can certainly argue Baer was a legit top heavyweight, but so is wilder. And both guys have relatively thin resumes and relied heavily on their power, athleticism, and toughness. Neither guy cracks my top 15 for h2h and certainly not resume. Not all "top heavyweights" are the same, there's levels to it.

 

Oh for goodness sake!

Nobody is arguing that Baer has a better resume than Frazier, in fact I have as good as said that he did not.

I have not even gone as far as to install him as favorite.

However you are selling his chances very far short here, and underrating his opposition.

Schmeling probably is better than anybody that Frazier beat, wit the sole exception of Ali.

Primo Carnera divides opinion here, but I think that you need to consider that he might have been as good as some of those men that you mention.

For example was he really no better than Mathis?

Ernie Schaff and Tommy Farr were probably good enough to beat some of those men as well.

 

Mathis boxes Carnera's head off 7/10 as long as he is defensively responsible.

I think Quarry vs Carnera is a 50/50 fight.

So that's two opponents of Frazier whom I think are either even with or better than Baer's best win!

 

I guess that you rate Mathis a bit higher than most relative to his peers.

If Quarry Carnera is a 50/50 type fight, then you should probably give Baer some credit for the win.

You don't need to sell me the idea that Frazier has a better resume, so why bother?

 

The problem is that Baer was very often outweighed and outsized.

 

Bear's best win is Schmeling though...

 

Well you were no longer addressing what I was saying about Baer's inconsistent jab and lack of an effective uppercut. I firmly believe he would have a hard time keeping Frazier off of him without those tools.

Schmeling wasn't the champion so he can't be Baer's best win if he took the title from someone else.

If you're arguing in terms of skill I completely agree but that's a different discussion.

 

I have made Frazier the favorite, based on his excellent resume, but I am certain that Baer would have been hell for him.

Baer knew how to deal with a swarmer.

He absolutely used his uppercut effectively, against anybody who got close to him.

I will grant you that his plan would be a bit less clinical than Foreman's, but the same principles would come into play.

He would keep Frazier walking into a carefully constructed killing zone.

Do you regard Jimmy Braddock, as being Joe Louis's best win?

 

Okay, you didn’t mean the jab but I didn’t see Max doing much with the left otherwise v Levinsky. It doesn’t mean Max literally didn’t use the other hand but nowhere near as much or as effectively as the right. I guess it might seem a recommendation for the left hook - the final punch that put The King down - but it was the preceding right hand bombs that already had Levinksy all but out.

Thanks for calling up some opponent names re size.. A few taller and heavier guys on the record but it still holds that Max mostly held and benefited from size advantage over the more elite, better skilled guys.

With Max and size , I’m talking also height/reach advantages - and several of the guys shorter guys referenced didn’t have meaningful weight advantage., Max’s height/reach advantages otherwise being the overriding feature. Galento had like 20 lbs on Max but it can be plainly seen the difficulties he faced given Baer’s appreciable height and reach advantages - which Baer didn’t utilise to max. effect but still couldn’t help benefiting from by natural default - but Baer’s chin and power punch also helped as I previously said - said attributes being components of the whole package - size, chin and right hand power.

As to the other opponents - equal, slightly bigger and an outlier - their records none too impressive as at the time they fought Baer - functional skills questionable - so Max not so much at the short end in that dept. and still with competitive size, chin and punch to go. Hankinson, for example, was KO’d three consecutive times in the first rd and then in the 2nd rd leading into his fight with Max.

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on occasion yes against the likes of Carnera, Santa, Tiny Abbot but it seems 85% of the time Baer was the larger man