Just to clarify, count against him because he was racist , or count against him because he thought he might be beat, or both ? stay safe buddy.
I think Dempsey in his prime would beat anyone, with one or two exceptions. People talk about his hype and marketing and all that press he got. Yeah, he got great publicity and his name sold newspapers and his fights sold out huge stadiums, and writers wrote about him for years after he retired. Hype, yes. But that doesn't mean he wasn't actually a great fighter.
Dempsey has brilliant punching technique and movement on the footage of him in his prime. Those short 'shovel' hooks of his and his bobbing, weaving, rolling movement and circling around on his toes, a pleasure to watch.
Dempsey was regarded most trainers, hall of fame boxers, and nearly all those who boxed him as the best they ever saw and the best they met in the ring. dozens of hall of fame boxers and worlds top trainers regarded him very highly, not to mention nearly every boxer who stepped in the ring with him. For those who may be interested in viewing the numerous newspaper clippings go to Michael Hunnicutt Facebook of branford , Connecticut view hunnicutts newspaper archives
Just some of the legends who regarded dempsey as the best they ever boxed and or seen include Battling Nelson, abe attell dempsey best modern, benny leanord, jack britton, mickey walker, johnny dundee, leach cross, tony canzoneri, sam langford, jim jeffries dempsey best of modern era, gene tunney, george godfrey, jack dillon, , max schemling,jack sharkey, jim braddock, max and buddy baer,, battling levinsky, carl morris, fred fulton, jess willard, billy miske, immy britt, george carpentier, luis firpo, tommy loughren, tom gibbons along with jimmy deforest, whitey bimstein, and ray arcel. Visit Hunnicutt newspaper archieve
In a giant mythical tourney of all heavyweights ever, I doubt he gets in the top 50. His connections not only got him hype and press but allowed him to get away fighting heavyweight non-entities like Gibbons, Carpentier, Firpo, Brennan...etc. Like I said a few years ago above, he was a great product, a watershed boxing product. Dempsey Inc. set the mold.
Jack had a very short prime, and some of the reason for that was his own choices. During that prime, from late 1917-1923(at the latest; most probably 1921 is a better choice), I don't think any Heavyweight in history would have had an easy time with him, in a 10-15 round fight. During that run, he weighed between 187 and 200 pounds. I currently rank him in my top 10 all-time Heavyweights, head to head. He wasn't always pretty to watch, but he's one of those guys who was better than some of those films show, IMHO. If it was possible to bring him, and the other Lineal Champions (and great non-Champions), back during their primes, there aren't many Heavyweights who I'd feel comfortable betting on against Jack Dempsey. He fought scared and was one of those guys who could turn fear to his advantage. It made him ferocious, especially against larger men. Jack was definitely at his best against big guys. I saw two of his exhibition fights, when he was far past his actual pro career. I met him twice, both times long after he retired. Once, at his Restaurant, I had a rather lengthy conversation with him. It was interesting when he told me he liked coming in light, especially against large opponents. Where are the great Dempsey sized Heavyweights today? I think they're either playing baseball, in some other sport, not in sports at all, or they've used "Modern Interventions" to bulk themselves up from 10 to 30 pounds, due to what's expected of Heavyweights today. I believe Jack was a freak of nature in the Heavyweight ranks. He would have been a force to be reckoned with in any era (IMHO, of course).
We have been over the Willard fight numerous times. The damage to him was *greatly* exaggerated. Dempsey sat on his title (like Willard), avoided the best fighters or consented to the evil of drawing the color line-never facing Willis or Greb, who beat many of his opponents, had many early losses including an immediate KO that may have been a fix, but likely was not... You are correct about Fred Fulton, except that was a 23 second fight. He was a great if overstated talent who should have done much more. Although he was only 31 the first time he lost to Tunney & had the stylistic advantage, both times he hardly won any rounds. Jack Sharkey was beating him before Dempsey took advantage of him complaining about a low blow to the referree to take him out-otherwise Sharkey seemed on the way to victory. He was far more important as an icon or historical figure than how great he was. At his prime weight & with his relatively skinny physique & relying on swarming power he swould have little chance against the best large modern fighters.
Firpo and Carpentier were drawing big crowds without Dempsey anyway. Firpo and Willard drew about 100,000 while Dempsey was out in Montana fighting Gibbons. Carpentier was marketed heavily post-WW1 because of his war as a French airforce pilot, aviiation and France being highly fashionable at that period. Regardless of Dempsey, he would have attracted attention. They were not non-entities. They were "products" too. Attractions. People wanted to see these guys. It's not all about Dempsey. The main difference, of course, clear to you as much as any of us, is that Jack Dempsey was a far better fighter, a great fighter.
I do not rate Dempsey nearly as highly as you, but for now just want to point out what Dempsey himself said about his power... That Rocky had more single punch & overall power, whereas he generally needed to club them into submission for a while. When you consider that a number of Marciano's contemporaries seemed to have greater one punch power than him-Satterfield & Curtis Sheperd come to mind-it seems impossible that Dempsey hit as hard as these sub-190 lbs. fighters.
I am open to the idea that Marciano, Satterfield, Sheppard, and other 190lb fighters might have hit a bit harder than Dempsey, but he was a better finisher than any of them.
Pretty much agree. Rickard blew up Carpentier and Firpo into relevance thru the writers he basically owned. Georges hadn't had a meaningful heavyweight fight in 7 or 8 years. Writers were almost unanimous that he would get KO'd by Dempsey. But the narrative, pitched relentlessly by Rickard, was enough to sell the fight. It was a great product. Firpo appears to largely constructed from whole cloth. The Wild Bull of Pampas, a fearsome name with a slathering of the "exotic", enough to entice rube fans of the age. What we see on film is barely a boxer by any definition. He looks more like a modern tough man competitor. If he was a far better fighter than the hapless Firpo perhaps he would not have come within a C-hair of losing.
They didn't need much blowing up into relevance. They were relevant at the time, and they would have been , if Rickard had done nothing! If Rickard was going to blow somebody up into relevance, do you honestly think that he would have started with two overseas fighters? Why didn't he build up an American fighter, like say Gibbons?
