From 1974 onwards, Would Ali Have Lost To Prime Holmes?

Ali looked untrained and sluggish in the Manilla fight.

 

Sluggish while throwing more vicious punches that he ever did in his career. Watch the fight again and look at Ali's expression especially in the early rounds. He was punching as if Joe Frazier were a nail and all he wanted was to put him under the canvas. Together they broke the record for heavyweights punches thrown in 100+ degree heat no less.

 

What has the got to do with what I said? Plus, Ali was shot & probably in the early stages of Parkinson's, while Holmes was in (or coming into) his prime. Poor comparison.

 

I doubt this. Fighters are egotistical & biased, & Ali famously often laid back during sparring.
In fact to prepare for Zaire he was absorbing mucho punishment doing the "rope-a-dope".
Holmes may have thought he was "winning" when Ali was trying things out like this against the ropes, & not going as hard.

Ali was great enough that i would favor him through '74.
By Manilla he has slowed & I give Holmes the advantage. Although it would be close.
Although I dunno if peak Holmes would have the workrate & chin to beat Frazier in '75 like Ali did.

That would make a great thread!

 

How can we think youare anything but biased when you say most people think Ali lost the Jones fight, & that is demonstrably not the case?
Also Ali when much faster of foot & able to ance for 15 rounds would not have likely lost to Norton.
Who had the advantage of always being prime when he fought Ali.
Ali struggled only with the very best in the world who could move & box-& even that only on a few occasions, mainly well past his prime.

Ali [redicte a 4th round Ko & the crowd-many backing native NY son Jones-turned on him.
But besides fighting better than expectations, most do not think Jones took more than 4 of 10 rounds.
What do you think of the website, which gives it a low, 17%, controversy rating?
And the consensus was Ali-then Clay-taking the last 4 rounds.
Show me consensus that Jones won!

[url]https://eyeonthering.com/boxing/cassius-clay-vs-doug-jones[/url]

 

Ali`s handspeed was slow, Holmes had far quicker hands by that stage.

 

I would say that the Ali who beat George Foreman just about nicks a close one against prime Holmes. Muhammad's hands and feet,although slowed down a tad from his sixties prime,were still faster than Larry's. Also Ali's right hand leads would be a factor. Any "Later Ali" loses to Holmes.

 

@Entaowed
Holmes was better than anyone Ali fought in the 60s. That includes Liston

 

Yes for sure .. Too fast ..

 

I believe the Thrilla form of Ali wins. He was able to still throw accurate punches in large numbers, and was more experienced than Holmes. Frazier was a harder target than Holmes would have been - so, Ali in a decision. After that, not so sure. Ali wasn’t the same.

 

Absolutely. Though Liston was both past his prime and rusty.

 

Not sure about that mate.
By the thrilla, both men had lost quite a bit of themselves, and imo especially Joe.
I see Holmes actually stopping Frazier of manila long before the 14 th.
Even though it was a fight to the death it was because both had gone back by then.

 

Prime Holmes yes.
And prime Ali was easily better than anyone Holmes ever faced, easily including the Ghost of the Shell of the Corpse of Ali!

 

Ali's hand were a blur Holmes wasn't as fast as Ali until maybe 1976-77. The Ali from Norton 3 would run Holmes pretty close. Ali was diminished after Manila.

 

Holmes faced Tyson.