Genuine heresies you believe

I think there were a lot of payoffs and dives in late Tyson fights; Neilsen. Golata. Seldon. Mathis. Francis. And favorable ref calls in Savarese and Norris.

Not that he does not beat these guys anyway. I just think these guys were never going to come out of the bout with a W.

 

Years ago I had scored Ali/Frazier 2 as 7-5 for Ali. I had it even after 10 and gave the final two rounds to Ali for landing more despite Joe forcing the action. More recently while going through the channels, I landed on the 12th and final round of that fight. This time I saw Joe being effectively aggressive and landing sufficient to win the round. So that would make the fight even. Sometime I will have to watch it again and see how I score it.

Regarding Manila, I recall the reason stated for the stoppage being that Joe could not see right hands coming. At one point between the 14th and 15th rounds the camera focuses on Joe and you can clearly see him blink both eyes. I don't know if it was true or not that he couldn't see right hands coming, but if he couldn't it was not because his eyes were swollen shut because they weren't. Eddie Futch said himself in later years that if he had it to do over, he would have Joe stand up and bounce up and down on his toes between rounds to demoralize Ali. If Joe could have done that, I believe he could have come out for the last round. Ali himself said that "Joe quit 10 seconds before he did." He may have been being magnanimous to Joe, but I have to wonder what Joe was thinking when he saw Ali collapse. I'm sure Eddie Futch did what he thought was the right thing to do at the time, but it is interesting to speculate on what may have happened in that last round. In my opinion, I believe neither would KO the other and Ali would win the decision as he was sufficiently ahead in the official scoring. While I am a huge Frazier fan, I watched the Thrilla and scored it as objectively as I could. I scored 8 rounds for Joe. Many of the rounds were close but I scored a lot of those close rounds for Joe based on his body attack and work rate.

 

Yuck

 

70s Foreman just isn't that good a true right time right place right time. Plenty could have taken his place in history.

 

I always felt like Terrell's performance against Ali was dogsh*t, and I really have to voice this out cuz people outside from this forum are always gonna think I'm an Ali hater. You see, Terrell is a terrific boxer who possess a beautiful jab and solid overall boxing skill. He would always stick to his jab and whether he landed or not he would still religiously use it.

BUT SOMEHOW when he fought Ali, he's performance was absolute dogsh*t. He was so stiff, robotic and somewhat anxious. Where's that beautiful jab? Where's the circling footwork? LIKE, FREAKING WHERE IS IT?? The way he just followed Ali with that tight guard and wasn't bother to do ANYTHING frustrates the living crap outta me. He literally just became a punching bag for full fifteen rounds, and somehow Ali dominated him??

 

Yeah Joe going blind in one eye affected his late career performances and may have allowed him to score better in Manila. I scored 7-5 Frazier for the second fight and upon repeat viewings of Manila I have it either 7 even or 8-6 for Joe. If both went out and Ali doesn't collapse he does take it based on judge scorecards, and Frazier might have felt less bitter over the years if it ended that way instead of Futch stopping him. If he actually won though, perhaps his hatred towards Ali goes down even more. I think just based on his character he'd still want another shot against Foreman albeit losing the title again but he'd retire knowing he did what he could.

 

Ali collapsed due to him knowing that,as exhausted as he was,there was no longer any need to stay upright after Eddie Futch did the right thing. Futch knew that Joe may well have got seriously injured had he gone out for the final round. YES,Ali was tired out too but the difference was that he was an exhausted man but one who could still see out of two eyes. Joe's vision was severely impaired as well all know.

 

I have serious doubts that William Stevens threw the fight against George Meggs

Looking at the time, Tom Johnson's claim to the championship of England does seem to be from self promotion as much as anything. There seems to have been a mix of opinions about him Vs Ben Brian before they fought, and Brian mocked his claim to the title.

I think Jack Carter was clearly regarded as the Champion of England after Tom Cribb

Joh J Dwyer's exclusion from the American lineage has obscured the fact that Joe Goss and Paddy Ryan were fighting for a vacant title.

In general, I think the championship lineages are very dubious. I don't see any justification for excluding Jem Carney, but including Paddy Duffy.

I think Jimmy Britt's (and then Battling Nelson's) claim to the Lightweight title were valid, though Joe Gans also had a valid claim.

 

"X Champion lost to the best he fought" is often just an excuse to focus on post-prime losses

In general such metrics are nonsense. N
Almost no one really rated guys based on them, instead just making up whatever ad hoc metric puts their guy on top.

 

If Ali was ever going to quit of his own volition one might point to the Holmes fight as being THE fight most likely to induce such a surrender.

Ali himself said after the first round he had no energy - imagine how scary that would’ve been. Yet Ali, in absolute futility and all exhaustion, kept coming out, round after round, barely moving and copping an awful hiding.

I personally don’t think that Ali would’ve quit if Joe stood up for the 15th. Ali had given Joe a terrific battering in the 14th and they were pouring on the smelling salts in Joe’s corner after the round finished.

Aside from the possibility of Ali being literally unable to get up from his stool, I can’t see him quitting in anticipation of some miraculous offensive being mustered by Joe.

It’s true the “collapse” only came after the fight was waved off - Ali knew he could then let go. It was a controlled descent to the canvas.

Not as immediate, but let’s remember that Ali also let himself drop to the deck after he KO’d Foreman. He needed space, air and not to be buffeted around in a ring that was becoming increasingly populated.

Notably, after both the Foreman and Frazier fights, Ali had that idiot Bundini all over him like a rash in an instant - Bundini also being the same guy who tried to prevent Dundee stopping the fight v Holmes - no wonder Muhammad clouted Bundini in the corner on a few occasions - probably just too tired to do same in Manila.

 

Me too. 8-6-1 for Earnie Shavers.

 

I'm imaging being dead tired after one round, staring across the ring at a prime Holmes who isn't even breathing heavy, knowing I'm about to eat endless jabs and 1-2s, knowing I'm probably not going to be able to touch him and will be powerless to stop him.

Yikes. I'd rather be anywhere else.

 

This is something I heard someone else say, and it's not even remotely unlikely. Ali was going through the motions and didn't even seem to be trying at times. It was almost like an old veteran having a sparring session with an overly eager young gun. I wouldn't be shocked at all if there was some written letter or a friend of Alis saying he confessed he wanted to be a 3x champion.

It's technically not against the rules to half ass a fight so that you can have a rematch to win accolades. Somewhat grimy and corrupt, but not nearly as bad as the draw for Lewis vs Hoylfield just so they could get a cash grab robbing Lewis in the process.

 

Not sure if this opinion is 'out there' but for me Tyson in the 80's was the last ATG heavyweight free from steroids. I think he was 100% clean in the 80's.
The guys after him, Lewis, Holyfield, Wladimir... all juiced to the earlobes.

 

Lewis didn't look juiced at all. Looked like a big ass dude with good genes who lifted.

Holyfield and Wlad looked juiced, whether or not they actually did.