greeter fighter - Duran or Ali

Nobody said before the fight that Tyson is ripe for a defeat and Douglas should be the favorite. The prevailing sentiment was that Tyson would destroy him like he destroyed virtually every boxer he fought before him but Buster showed tremendous heart and beat him. If Duran showed that heart he wouldn't have quit in New Orleans.

 

Duran is a better pound for pound boxer than the Golden Boy but they have one thing in common. They both have lost as many or more "big fights" than they won.

 

OP great question.....never understand how people can criticise these two genuine legends.

Flip a coin.

 

Nobody said that before the fight because they did not even know it, they expected Tyson to bring his usual self in the ring, the whole win was considered an unlucky fluke in Tyson's part after it ended. Douglas didn't beat him just due to heart, he beat him because Tyson was not himself that night. Moving up 2 weight classes and beating a top 20 ATG is more impressive than beating an unprepared and untrained barely even top 100 ATG

 

Name one hundred fighters that had better careers than Mike Tyson.

 

FOTC and Louis-Schmeling I.

I'd also here an argument for Tyson-Douglas.

 

But it doesn't.

A win over Sugar Ray Leonard is better than a win over George Foreman no matter who pulled it off. Whether it was a 200/1 underdog or a 1/50 favourite.

What determines the quality of a win, is the level of opposition it was against.

 

FOTC is probably the best. I think Ali's win over Foreman is top 5, perhaps top 3.

I agree with you that Duran was better. I don't think any boxer of the past 40 years is better than Duran. Jones and Sweet Pea come closest imo.

Greater? I think Duran edges Ali too.

 

We are at an impasse regarding which win is more impressive. To be the best you have to beat the best. The rest is noise. Let's stick to things which can be quantified. I hope we can agree that the International Boxing Hall Of Fame is where the greats of boxing live in eternity. Let's compare the records of Roberto Duran and Muhammad Ali. Muhammad Ali against other greats (International Boxing Hall Of Fame Inductees) is 8-3. What is Duran's?

 

Just look at McGrain's list. If you don't know who they are, then just do some research .

 

I'm asking you to name 100 boxers who had better careers than Mike Tyson. You made the claim. And while you're at it could you please tell me Roberto Duran's record against other members of the International Boxing Hall Of Fame. Muhammad Ali was 8-3. Roberto Duran is certainly a much better pound for pound boxer than Oscar De la Hoya but they both lost as many or more big fights than they won. Without looking he was 1-4 against the other three Kings (Hagler, Hearns, Leonard) Is that good to you? I wouldn't be pumping up Ali if he was 1-5 against Liston, Patterson, Frazier, Norton, and Foreman.

 

No, that's not how it works

That's precisely why heavyweights struggle to match lower weights in terms of pound-for-pound achievements. You don't diminish what a fighter at the lower weights did because a heavyweight couldn't do it.

I never said he was a tougher assignment because he was more skilled, I said he was a tougher assignment because he BETTER. Leonard wasn't just more skilled, he was better in every facet of the sport bar power and strength.

Fine, agree to disagree.

Yeah, compare Ali of those fights and you'll see he's a little slower. His stamina was tested because he was in with a better fighter, you're high if you think Ali in and out of training camps for three years after his exile wasn't back up to that standard of fitness. He was just in with somebody who made work more, in Norton. The little he lost in speed, he made up for with newfound toughness, grit, experience and strength. Ali was still in his prime for Foreman. His downfall really started post Thrilla. Furthermore, it's easy to watch Duran in his fights with Hearns, Leonard II and Benitez and see he's not at his best. They're not excuses, they're reasons.

Duran after Leonard went off the rails, and them was up and down floating in-between winning titles and losing to journeymen after Leonard. Ali was heavyweight champion for another four years. In what way was Duran in much better shape post Leonard?

You should reread this, because it 100% implies it.
"Unlike Duran, Ali doesn't need to milk out and get tons of mileage for one great win over a hall of famer. Duran lost to most of his best opponents no matter how you slice it."

Duran's best opponents were light years beyond Ali's, and Duran faced one of them while he was at his best and not one of them was his size. This is absolutely not indicative of his skill as a fighter, and going back to the point I originally quoted you for; Duran was far more skilled of the two, and a lack of skill was not the cause of those losses. Comparing their results side by side is stupid and means literally nothing, because the circumstances were so different. Ali's résumé is incredible, so is Duran's. There's nothing clear about the comparison.

And yes, I'm giving Duran props for both having success at a higher weight and also skimming over his losses there. As it happens, I tend to skim over losses in general, hence why I haven't mentioned Ali losing to Norton or Frazier - or Duran-Leonard II; but if any losses are justifiable, it's losses to Leonard, Hearns, Hagler and Benitez when you're smaller than all of them and past your prime for all but one - who you beat.

So if I'm having it both ways, whatever. That's how I'm having it.

 

I know I'm having a discussion with a friend from across the ocean but this quote from one of America's greatest football coaches quote is universal. Bill Parcells said "you are what your record says you are." There are seventeen football games in a season. If you win eight or nine of them you're average. If you win say twelve or more you're really good . If you win four or five you stink. Muhammad Ali was 8-3 against other members of the International Hall Of Fame. I could make excuses/explanationations why the 3 losses shouldn't count but I won't. I'll take the 8-3 record against boxing's greats as demonstrated by their membership in the International Boxing Hall or Fame as it is. What was Roberto Duran's record?

 

On the flip side of that coin if Duran had his fights judged the same way Ali's were he would have a win over Benitez and certainly Hagler. Ali got credit for 5 rounds before he left the dressing room.

 

Ali would be too busy getting hit to taunt
Duran. I could see Ali trying the rope a dope out of desperation. It wouldn't work though. Roberto was relentless and he would pour it on mercilessly.
In truth Ali would need a 3+ inch height advantage to be competitive. P4P were talking same size. It's Roberto. I acknowledge Ali as the greatest heavyweight and one of the best fighters in history but heavyweights don't have the same type of skills the lighter weight boxers have.
Edwin Viruet was a good slick boxer with confidence. He taunted Duran in both their fights but he paid for it dearly. Duran in his prime had the speed close the distance. His right hand lead was a laser.