Saying he was "Not that good" was me responding to @RulesMakeItInteresting saying this. "That was a Frazier who left something of himself in the FOTC, just as Bowe did in his 1st Holyfield fight. A hyper motivated Frazier, like the one during This content is protected Look at his eyes during that fight..."
An absolute fighting legend. A great fighter and very decent bloke both inside and outside of the ring. I don't personally recall any negative dramas or skeletons in his cupboard... His name has often been used and will continue to be used as a yardstick for comparison for left hooks and non stop work rates. Smoking Joe was a very fitting name.
George was pushing Joe within secs of opening bell. He wasn’t sidestepping so much as literally turning Frazier with one hand or both. If Foreman “sidestepped” in any way, it was achieved at the same time as pushing Joe - literally using Joe’s own inertia to turn himself to the side. Before the passing of just 30 secs, Foreman had already pushed Joe multiple times, one handed, two handed etc. One push involved putting his glove behind Joe’s neck to “turn”’him and another saw Foreman blatantly push Joe in the back. Pretty sure Foreman was warned for pushing at some point also. Also, in the early going, when Foreman is actually punching ONLY, Joe lands a medium powered left hook, then shortly after a solid let hook right on the jaw - which Foreman clearly felt and which cued yet another immediate push off from Foreman. Joe’s connections/successes were limited but they were notably achieved in free and open exchanges - when Foreman wasn’t actually pushing and shoving Joe around. IMO, the pushing and shoving lent a lot to the manner, brevity and emphatic nature of Foreman’s victory. Without same, the path to victory would’ve been that much tougher and whatever chances Joe had to beat George would’ve been increased that much more.
Iirc Frazier landed a good left hook that temporarily stunned Foreman which is when Foreman resorted to shoving Frazier into his target zone, and forcing him to reset. You were correct that Foreman was warned for shoving Frazier but that was all the way in the 2nd round soon before the fight was stopped when the damage was already done. It was ridiculous. Frazier would've most likely lost anyways but the officiating was horrible.
Isn’t that the truth? Over the history of boxing, there’s been some great nick names in their own right but somewhat ill fitting (Hopkins The Executioner?). However, Smok’n’ was perfect for Frazier - we know Joe started a bit slow - but I loved it when commentators would later observe “Joe is now beginning to smoke!” - and smoke he did. Bert Cooper adopted the nick but I can’t think of any other fighters off the top who also did - but there were probably others. Joe reminded me of the old steam donkey engine toys. With a nudge they start off slow but very sure before hitting full chug - with the associated steam release increasing. Donkey Engine Joe? I dunno, people might get the wrong idea with the inclusion of the term “Donkey”. Ha. Just as well as I wasn’t around to give Joe his nick. LOL. Smok’n’ was perfect - bad for everyone else’s health - his opponents, victims of “passive” smoking we might say.
Yeah, it did stun Foreman but George was pushing and turning with his hands from the get go. That George had a tremendous power and some skills otherwise and that even without it, George likely wins, tends to cause his shoving to be over sighted or dismissed. I believe George was warned in the rematch also - but again, hard to police over such a short fight with George’s power punching ending matters relatively early. It would be more pronounced with a fighter who couldn’t put Joe out but constantly employed the tactic through 12-15 rounds - kinda like Ali’s OTT clinching v Frazier II. They’all shouldn’t haven’t been pushing and holding little Joe like that - I mean he was already straight up disadvantaged by his height and reach without all the clinching, holding and pushing to compound his woes. LOL. Just shows what a dangerous man Joe was in free and open exchanges - even for the likes of Ali and Foreman who both employed tactics to avert or minimise clean and open exchanges.
That’s fine. But it’s not uncalled for to disagree? All I said was he wasn’t that good. If I said that Marciano beats Lennox Lewis handily and you said exactly what I did I wouldn’t mind.
I have zero problem with your not agreeing. It was the laughing symbol...but forget it. No big deal, let's get on with our boxing discussions.
That's not "All you said". You also laughed at his post, and said "come on" as if you were ridiculing his post which you've since claimed wasn't the case (but I highly doubt that for obvious reasons).
I could see a FOTC Frazier with the same motivation he had to beat Ali, and a Foreman immediately warned for pushing make the fight last longer. At that time Foreman didn’t seem to be used to going the distance. Past round 5 Frazier’s chances of winning start increasing.